What do these markings mean please?

[Kerry9]

Happy Xmas all,

I bought a live- firer about 15 years ago that had been bought in Russia as part of a large batch then legally imported to the UK for resale.

I assume 1938 is its year of manufacture but beyond that, I know nothing more about its provenance. If someone could perhaps tell me what all the markings mean, I'd really appreciate your help. Many thanks.

 

[morticianman1990]

I'll take a stab at this. The S/243 designates the action was made in the Mauser AG Borsigwalde factory. The 7354 b are the serial number and letter block, 1-10000 serialed rifles for each letter block. The "X" designates a russian captured rifle. The eagle on the left side designates the Weimar Republic and I believe it is a firing proof. On the right side of the reciever the eagles with 280 underneath them are what are known as waffenamts. These were applied by a single quality inspector who had a number designation.

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[u96]

S/243 is code for the Mauser facility at Borsigwalde. 280 is the inspector’s stamp at said facility. The x is a mark the Russians made after the captured and reworked the rifle for their own use later.

 

[morticianman1990]

I'll take a stab at this. The S/243 designates the action was made in the Mauser AG Borsigwalde factory. The 7354 b are the serial number and letter block, 1-10000 serialed rifles for each letter block. The "X" designates a russian captured rifle. The eagle on the left side designates the Weimar Republic and I believe it is a firing proof. On the right side of the reciever the eagles with 280 underneath them are what are known as waffenamts. These were applied by a single quality inspector who had a number designation.

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Also to be thorough, the 7.9 on the top of the barrel designates the rifle is chambered in 7.92x57mm Mauser, and the BNP with a crown looks to be the UK import firing proofs.

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[Kerry9]

Thanks for responding

Thank you for these responses, much appreciated. I'm assuming therefore that it was made in 1938 in Borsigwalde, which would be well after the Weimar Republic, but I agree, there does seem to be a pre-3rd Reich eagle on there, which is a puzzle.

If the 'X' denotes a Russian capture, how would you get have reworked the rifle? The wooden stock and other furniture seems original. Plus, no Tuszla overstamps either, so am now even more confused as to its provenance.

Tomorrow 31 December it will be live- fired using 7.92x57.

 

[M1903A3]

Thank you for these responses, much appreciated. I'm assuming therefore that it was made in 1938 in Borsigwalde, which would be well after the Weimar Republic, but I agree, there does seem to be a pre-3rd Reich eagle on there, which is a puzzle.

If the 'X' denotes a Russian capture, how would you get have reworked the rifle? The wooden stock and other furniture seems original. Plus, no Tuszla overstamps either, so am now even more confused as to its provenance.

Tomorrow 31 December it will be live- fired using 7.92x57.

Most of the time, K98s captured by the Russians were completely disassembled, all the parts heavily re-blued, and then put back together but NOT with the original parts going back into one rifle. They clearly were not trying to keep parts together. However, there ARE some Russian captured K98s that somehow seem NOT to have been scrambled up. No idea why or how. On many R/C guns they even defaced the eagles and swastikas. But again, on some they didn’t. It’s as though some guns were passed through with just the property mark and not rebuilt at all, but we will never know why. Since many of the guns they captured were perfectly serviceable as is the need to strip them all down was in many cases unnecessary from an operability standpoint. I mean if they wanted operable rifles, they HAD them in hand.

The “X” over the serial on the receiver is the “Russian property” mark and that’s the sure sign the Russians got it, but beyond that anything else about provenance is a guess. This is why for research and collecting the R/C guns often aren’t any help as you can’t follow numbering or marking trends on guns reassembled from scrambled parts. Once in a while though one comes along that has had minimal or no reworking beyond the “X”.


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[SteveMKentucky]

Weimar dates

Thank you for these responses, much appreciated. I'm assuming therefore that it was made in 1938 in Borsigwalde, which would be well after the Weimar Republic, but I agree, there does seem to be a pre-3rd Reich eagle on there, which is a puzzle.

If the 'X' denotes a Russian capture, how would you get have reworked the rifle? The wooden stock and other furniture seems original. Plus, no Tuszla overstamps either, so am now even more confused as to its provenance.

Tomorrow 31 December it will be live- fired using 7.92x57.

Is the serial number etched onto the bolt with an electric engraving pencil? This was common with the Russian reworks.

Good catch on the date. Technically, the rifle was not manufactured during the Weimar Republic. It was manufactured under the Third Reich. However, the 'Weimar' proof symbols were used for a number of years after Hitler came to power. Hitler became "Fuehrer" in 1934. Weapons manufacturing appears to have increased dramatically in 1935 or 1936 still using the old proof marks. Others can probably provide the year that the revised Third Reich proof marks began.

As an aside, it also appears that the inspectors began using Third Reich Waffenamt marks before the proof marks changed over. Hence, we see the early rifles using the old Weimar proofs with Third Reich inspector marks.

The mystery to me is the British nitro proof mark. I'm not familiar with countries 're-proofing' military rifles.

 

[bigwagon]

The mystery to me is the British nitro proof mark. I'm not familiar with countries 're-proofing' military rifles.

That was standard practice in the UK for all firearms, surplus or not, that were sold on the commercial market. It's quite common to find lend-lease M1 Garands, M1911s, and other military weapons with British proofs. I even have a 1916 Luger with British proofs marked Not English Make, a practice that continued into the mid-50s. You will also see proof marks on most British military weapons sold out of service.

 

[SteveMKentucky]

Thanks

That was standard practice in the UK for all firearms, surplus or not, that were sold on the commercial market. It's quite common to find lend-lease M1 Garands, M1911s, and other military weapons with British proofs. I even have a 1916 Luger with British proofs marked Not English Make, a practice that continued into the mid-50s. You will also see proof marks on most British military weapons sold out of service.

Interesting. Didn't know that. I wonder if they actually tested them or just stamped them...

 

[morticianman1990]

Thank you for these responses, much appreciated. I'm assuming therefore that it was made in 1938 in Borsigwalde, which would be well after the Weimar Republic, but I agree, there does seem to be a pre-3rd Reich eagle on there, which is a puzzle.

If the 'X' denotes a Russian capture, how would you get have reworked the rifle? The wooden stock and other furniture seems original. Plus, no Tuszla overstamps either, so am now even more confused as to its provenance.

Tomorrow 31 December it will be live- fired using 7.92x57.

At Borsigwalde the Weimar Proof and Third Reich waffenamts may be the case; however, I have a Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik rifle with just the opposite. I'm assuming it was personal preference or down to when they started at their position perhaps.

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[heavy_mech]

..I have a Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik rifle with just the opposite. I'm assuming it was personal preference or down to when they started at their position perhaps.

IMHO it was a multi-faceted decision. I think the political ideology of 'ownership' or management and that of their overseers whether OKH or the local Gauleiter and his circle would be the #1 consideration. Next I'd say was the condition of the stamps in use and the need for more as production ramps up. Quickly in some cases. I think it's fairly obvious that after an xx date all stamps made were e/NS. That date surely varied somewhat based on need, 'eyes on' and ideologies.