"Twins" Bnz 43 single rune.

[RADOMMAN]

I was lucky enough to wrangle the pair of these. To think they were near side by side in 1943 and all these years later together again. Bnz single runes 7331 & 7325. As close as they are in serial number 6 didgits They differ alot. The receiver type , rune type Bnz application all differ. The stocks are near identicle but one has a single e/623 on the wrist where the other lacks it.
One trigger guard has a single rune and one does not. Anyway I'll let the photos do the talking. Enjoy.

 

[mrfarb]

Cool. What are the barrel codes on these two? It may be that they are not so close together as you think.

 

[jack944]

Wow

What a contrast in the polishing ! This is a great post showing how things so close could be so different....??? made on a different line ???other area of facility-???..
Great set up with side by side..

 

[Pisgah]

Cool. What are the barrel codes on these two? It may be that they are not so close together as you think.

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Bigdibbs88]

veryyyy nice. i want

 

[RyanE]

Those photos certainly do a lot of talking! Two thumbs up from me.

 

[mauser99]

Bnz runes.

I stupidly didnt tare these down further when I was over Mikes. We did a few projects including a full restore on a 1938 wz29 that was covered in goo and had all the metal painted ? Anyway it came out great and It's a matching rifle. Plus he didnt have a 1938 at this point."hard to beleive".

My thoughts are these rifle are assembled from parts from at least three sources. I the dull receiver is a Radom version and the Glossy one being a steyr version. The problem is there are no proofs on them to link them to either. But the signs of machining and finishing of both. Plus the bnz & bnz. & the rune being applied in a different manner. I will try to get them apart and photo the barrel codes and any other points of intrest on my next visit to Waffenstadt Truro..

 

[mrfarb]

I stupidly didnt tare these down further when I was over Mikes. We did a few projects including a full restore on a 1938 wz29 that was covered in goo and had all the metal painted ? Anyway it came out great and It's a matching rifle. Plus he didnt have a 1938 at this point."hard to beleive".

My thoughts are these rifle are assembled from parts from at least three sources. I the dull receiver is a Radom version and the Glossy one being a steyr version. The problem is there are no proofs on them to link them to either. But the signs of machining and finishing of both. Plus the bnz & bnz. & the rune being applied in a different manner. I will try to get them apart and photo the barrel codes and any other points of intrest on my next visit to Waffenstadt Truro..

Yes, barrel codes will tell a lot about the set. I agree, the receivers are from 2 different locations.

 

[mauser99]

barrel code update..

Ok, Bnz 43 serial # 7325 code[ al bnz/1 in sheild single e/623 ]

The other is #7331 symbol [? Ru e/623 b ] I have this code pictured as I couldnt descibe the symbol.

I think one has a steyr made blank and the other Rurhstahl ???? Please try to shed some light . Oh great one... I cant see if this would narrow the time line as the barrels came from two different sources.

Also to add to the confusion the bnz43 non rune ss contract I posted on the serial data base is as follows..Bnz #2171 [ bk bnz/1 "in shield" single e/623] So if there was any questions if these rifle were made in a different sequence I guess this would be a yes ??
I for one think barrels are coded of quality control but, there has to be some variation in use or dispersal of barrles.

Good topic for discussion ??

 

[mrfarb]

What you look for is patterns. Barrel codes invariably will progress, and you see a pattern in barrel code progression by studying the codes. Yes, Steyr used different barrel codes/markings, but you compare to other known guns in the series and you can start to see patterns.

To me, from this evidence, I would say that these are indeed "twins" and built right together. As to why the different runes, I have my own idea about that, and these really help justify my thoughts on the matter. My own opinion is the runes were stamped at the manufacturing end, prior to shipment to Steyr for assembly. The fact that these 2 receivers were manufactured at different locations seems to support that, but the research is still too green to make that statement 100%.

 

[mauser99]

bnz ss contract.

whats the concensous on the bnz ss contract and the single rune listed above with the steyr barrels ?
serial # 7325 with "al" code and the serial # 2171 with " bk" code ???

 

[mrfarb]

whats the concensous on the bnz ss contract and the single rune listed above with the steyr barrels ?
serial # 7325 with "al" code and the serial # 2171 with " bk" code ???

Not quite sure what the question is? I'd guess the 2171 came after the 7325 rifle based on the barrel coding.

 

[plymouthmauser]

I stupidly didnt tare these down further when I was over Mikes. We did a few projects including a full restore on a 1938 wz29 that was covered in goo and had all the metal painted ? Anyway it came out great and It's a matching rifle. Plus he didnt have a 1938 at this point."hard to beleive".

My thoughts are these rifle are assembled from parts from at least three sources. I the dull receiver is a Radom version and the Glossy one being a steyr version. The problem is there are no proofs on them to link them to either. But the signs of machining and finishing of both. Plus the bnz & bnz. & the rune being applied in a different manner. I will try to get them apart and photo the barrel codes and any other points of intrest on my next visit to Waffenstadt Truro..

Hey stop by Plymouth, and bring me too! I've yet to meet divinity.

PM

 

[mauser99]

ss and single rune

Going off earlier discussion it was thought the bnz43 single rune and ss contract were the same rifle. Does this prove they were done seperatly ? If the earler serial number has the later barrel ? Also Im I right thinking the other rune rifle has a Ruhrstalh barrel and is coded "b' ? I'm just curious. Sorry to add the other rifle in the mix and confuse things even more.







QUOTE=mrfarb;24537]Not quite sure what the question is? I'd guess the 2171 came after the 7325 rifle based on the barrel coding.[/QUOTE]

 

[mrfarb]

Going off earlier discussion it was thought the bnz43 single rune and ss contract were the same rifle. Does this prove they were done seperatly ? If the earler serial number has the later barrel ? Also Im I right thinking the other rune rifle has a Ruhrstalh barrel and is coded "b' ? I'm just curious. Sorry to add the other rifle in the mix and confuse things even more.

You are thinking too small production wise. There was more than 10,000 guns built, with multiple blocks of 10,000. So it's possible to have a higher serial number on an earlier gun. I haven't decided how many blocks there were, but it will bear itself out. And yes, SS contract and Single Runes are the same gun in my opinion, built on the same line. Much of the confusion is timeline of construction, which I am researching.

 

[mauser99]

so,

is the other non steyr barrel a ruhrstahl barrel ? and is the barrel code the small "b' stamped on it ?

 

[mrfarb]

is the other non steyr barrel a ruhrstahl barrel ? and is the barrel code the small "b' stamped on it ?

Both are Steyr made barrels. We haven't figured out what the circle W represents, and the Ru is Ruhrstahl steel used to make the barrel- the E/623 is the acceptance, which is Steyr. Steyr had a barrel facility in Letten that made barrels through the whole war. The b is not part of the barrel code I don't think, but your barrel code is right before the changeover to the more standard double alpha with bnz sheild markings. It's just an early style marking.

 

[Loewe]

The circle W, or bull's-eye is similar to Steyr's logo, except in the logo "Steyr" is in the middle. Attached find a picture of a poster from their 75 anniversary (1939) with the logo. This came before they went to shields, which was done by many of the firms, especially government owned firms, Gustloff, Brno, Ruhrstahl (owned by VSt - Thyssen, who was in Buchenwald at the time) which used them a short time before going back to just codes, - of course Mauser used them too, so not sure why some used shields and why others never did.

But I think this bull's-eye W is a variation of their logo, possibly W=Waffenfabrik, as that was part of their name, and by 1940's the Waffenfabrik was a pretty insignificant part (division) of their business. Actually in 1939 it wasn't much either, it was the last thing listed on the things they made, on the poster, and for good reason as they made very few, comparatively, small arms 1919-1938.

 

[Turbo Archie]

My own opinion is the runes were stamped at the manufacturing end, prior to shipment to Steyr for assembly.

How does the trigger guard relate to that because to me it seems that the rune marked TG is tied to that type of rune marked receiver??


..

 

[RyanE]

How does the trigger guard relate to that because to me it seems that the rune marked TG is tied to that type of rune marked receiver??


..

Interesting question. Assuming the Radom facility filled a special contract for 10K rune marked receivers, they certainly might have specifically manufactured all the components required to assemble all 10K contract rifles including 10K rune marked TGs. The receivers and TGs were shipped and then mated up at Steyr. Of course, if that is the case then why would the other parts not have runes? Then, you have rune marked barrels and rear sight bases show up on standard army guns. Very confusing.

I think I'll pour myself a glass of scotch and just let Mike figure it out.