Third Party Press

SS-Zentralzeugamt epiphany

mrfarb

mrfarb

No War Eagles For You!
Staff member
So I recently received a bit of information about SSZZA2 marked double claw rifles, specifically where they were inspected. The information did not line up with my original assumptions. I will say that previously I had information (second hand) that the SS M41 Panzerbusche rifle was made by Waffenwerk Brünn and sent to Oranienburg for inspection - those are marked SSZZA2, just like the SS double claw snipers.

The problem I have is we know Waffenwerk Dachau was SS2 due to the volume of work performed there and the rifles marked SS2, so logically (it seemed) SSZZA2 should also be aligned with them somehow. I know that the MP35 sub machine gun was SSZZA1 (and SS-Wa1) marked and those were Police weapons, and the main SS police depot was Oranienburg. Add to that the Kaftfahrzeug depot was numbered 1 that was located in Oranienburg, and Oranienburg was the first and most important SS depot. So, logic logic logic, matching numbers up seems logical. Then it struck me - the word used was "Abnahme", inspection.

It was in my face all along - the SS-Zentralzeugamt was renamed in late 1941/42 timeframe to "SS-Waffenamt". I totally glossed over the word "waffenamt" in my desire to connect a stamp to a facility. It seems now that the SSZZA stamps were used similarly to the way the HWA (HeeresWaffenamt) stamps were, as in being assigned to an OFFICE and not a PLACE. An OFFICE, a waffenamt officer whose job it was to inspect goods made for the SS. So the SSZZA2 stamp was simply the officer who inspected it, not the place it was inspected (although I guarantee the main offices were located in Berlin, the hub of SS power).

Skull markings are SS depot markings, much like the army ones (stamped in the same places on the wood too ironically, or not):

Suspected meanings:

SS2= Waffenwerkstatt Dachau
Skull /sideways S (lazy S) - Sachsenhausen?
Skull / flat M (gull) - Münich?
Skull01= SS Zeugamt Oranienburg (only seen on the barrel)
Skull K = Kurmark?

SSZZA* numbers were inspectors, not depots.

How could I miss that - luckily my text in the book isn't too wrong, the concept is close.....we need an addendum to the book so we can add this as it develops (and other new documents) along with some cool finds from the years since.

Link - auction from Hermann Historica mentioning documents and deliveries to SS Oranienburg of the M41SS Panzerbusche rifles - these are SSZZA2 inspected. I could never find these exact documents ( have some of the others mentioned showing Brünn making them, so most likely these are in the NARA archives as well, I may have missed them), but I believe the description is accurate, maybe someone could track them down (I'll try to find them). http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktion/hhm57.pl?f=NR&c=74766&t=temartic_S_GB&db=kat57_s.txt

SSZZA2 1.JPG SSZZA2 2.JPG
 
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Very interesting information. This new document is exciting as it also names where the SS Double Claws were made. But I will allow the person who found the document to share that information. It does help your theory of the SSZZA markings being inspectors.
 
Mike, as I had written via E-Mail I can't follow all of your assumptions. In a short reply here therefore I'll mention the main points here too.

Documents on the SS Double Claw sniper rifles state two details:

  1. Acceptance is done AT the receiver
  2. Receiver is SS-Hauptzeugamt Oranienburg

This means that the SSZZA2 proof to these rifles was applied at Oranienburg, without much of a doubt.

You are confused by the fact that the SS Panzerbüchse later was tested in Dachau whereas documents state after the production in Brünn they are to be supplied to Oranienburg. As I had told you this might however be the official order on where to supply items to, despite they later then would go in an exactly opposite direction. Without having the documents that Hermann-Historica mentions (and I'll try to get them) it however is the same case for the SS DC sniper rifles. They were made in Brünn (well, converted to sniper rifles), but then were shipped to Oranienburg where they were accepted/proofed with the SSZZA2 stamp. Following this the items then were supplied to whoever the end user was.

In reference to the SS DC sniper rifles I had told you that I am aware of a SS sniper school in Tyrolia where post WWII some SS DC sniper rifles surfaced which never saw actual field usage. Considering the SS DC sniper rifles being made in Brünn, then being shipped 600 km to the North(West) to Oranienburg where they got accepted, and finally being supplied to a sniper school in Innsbruck which is another 750 km South of Oranienburg ... it would then not bother me too much knowing the SS Panzerbüchse went the same 600 km to the North(West) from where they then went 600 km to the South to Dachau.

As a result to this I cannot concur with the assumption that SSZZA* were inspectors and not arsenals since it seems we have proof that SSZZA2 stamps were applied in Oranienburg, but I also can't proof you are wrong with it. I would therefore at this point call it a theory which needs more research.
 
Yes, this is a theory, of course.

Let me clarify my position - all of the items we have seen to date that are marked SSZZA2 are directly related to Oranienburg (by documents). This is true - so it would not be wrong to say SSZZA2 is Oranienburg. But, certainly there were more than just these items made and reworked at Oranienburg, so why no SSZZA2 stamps on those? Why just 2 items? If this was a stamp for an SS-Hauptzeugamt it would be on other things, repaired things.

My point is, the SSZZA2 stamp is not attributed to the SS-Hauptzeugamt there. An inspector from the office of the SS-Zentralzeugamt (later renamed SS-Waffenamt) inspected the items there. So a rework from Oranienburg would not have an SSZZA2 marking, but a rifle made in Brünn and shipped there did. This also explains the relative rarity of any SSZZA1 (and later SS-Wa1), SSZZA2 or SSZZA4 stamp on anything except very specific weapons. There is exactly 1 item marked SSZZA1 and SS-Wa1), the MP35/1 made for the SS. Only 2 items have SSZZA2 stamps - M41SS Pzb and double claws, coincidentally both made at Brünn and shipped to Oranienburg. Only 1 item has SSZZA4 inspection, rifles made from new or salvaged components. So with that, if SSZZA2 was the SS-Hauptzeugamt at Oranienburg, why do we not see Gew.98 reworks marked with that stamp? They obviously did a lot of reworks there.

The root of what i'm saying is SSZZA* stamps were SS inspectors, not SS depots, but these inspectors did their work at the depots. I know, it's very confusing.

The saving grace for calling SSZZA4 "Kurmark" is the "Skull K" at the keel. The skull markings are the SS depot marks.
 
Brünn. AWESOME, a Czech connection was always assumed in some way but it’s really good to see this info solidified.

Great job connecting the dots Mike! I love when things fall in place you’ve been staring at all along. It makes perfect sense, we know HWA inspectors traveled, look at how many different locations within a district might fall under one office, case in point the Suhl consortium. This notion is even confirmed in Vis35 docs. I would assume, given the close proximity, that Oranienburg was covered by the main offices in Berlin Lichterfelde West.

As to the K, I’ve wondered if there is a connection to the SS operations in Kummersdorf?? worth looking into for sure.
 
The SSZZA stamps are ACCEPTANCE stamps. They are - for me - NOT repair/depot stamps. This is what you have to consider when comparing it with other stamps, such as the Deaths Head arsenal stamps. This is also visible by the fact that the few items we know of carrying SSZZA stamps are items which were not made by the SS. The SSZZA1 accepted MP.35/I were made by Junkers & Ruh, the SSZZA2 accepted SS DC snipers were "made" (well, equipped with scopes) by Brünn, the SSZZA2 accepted SS Panzerbüchse was also made by Brünn. The only ones out of this logic are the SSZZA4 marked rifles - but we don't have any ideas on who has made these rifles so far, so they could in theory also had been repairs outcarried by a non-SS organization.
 
Then we agree. Now to do more research!


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