Spandau 1914 Goerz 3x sniper rifle

[Amberg]

Some of you will remember this rifle from the discussion at gunboards some years ago. It now ended up in my collection.
I’ve tried out my Goerz 3x scopes. They all fit perfectly.
Looks like Goerz had an automated production for the rings and bases. Not like the mostly handmade claw mounts used with most of the other scopes.
Have one scope in the “g” block, but it is a later variant. Not correct for a 1914 dated rifle. One of my early scopes, (Gew. No. 1224, no suffix) is only 126 numbers away from the rifle. But I think I'll use a scope with scrubbed rifle#.
One of the photos shows the bottom of the fireproof and the faint "g" suffix. Both filled with solder.
Any other Goerz 3x rifle out there? I would like to have the screw for windage adjustment reproduced and need the measurements.
Thanks

 

[gew98]

I'd be hesitant on this rifle if it were offered to me. Only because I am not comfortable with the serial reapplied below base and the apparent overstirke of a serial on the barrel.
Does this rifle appear to you in hand as one having been 'salvaged' ?. If it is period legit I'd wager salvaged and most likely post 1915.
Is it possible it's had a replaced barrel post base attachment due to the vice marks on the receiver ?.

 

[gebirgsjager]

Rifle

gew98,your quote is really cool.....so may I say,jesus christ,that is a cool lot of scopes! I cannot comment on the rifle ,cuz I just don't know anything on the WW1 snipes!

 

[Amberg]

I don’t like the vice marks on the receiver either. Same with the over stamped serial# on the barrel. And there are some more details that make me skeptical.
e.g. the font on barrel, receiver and stock are identical, but different to other Spandau 1914 rifles. It would be ok for a Spandau 1916 rifle. (Do not have a Spandau 1915 for comparison.) Maybe it was put together from salvaged parts at the GPK.
According to the German scope manuals the field armorers were allowed to repair the gun. But as soon as the scope, rings or bases were affected, the complete set had to be sent to the Gewehr-Prüfungskommision (GPK) at Spandau-Ruhleben for repair.
Hopefully I soon will find time to break it down, to search for other stamps on the barrel/receiver.
Unfortunately I do not know any genuine Georz 3x rifle over here, to compare it with.
Thanks

 

[gew98]

I know from this side of the pond you can find alot more scopes than the rifles...so many veterans grabbed the optics and tossed the rifles sadly.
Though I did know a WW2 vet whom in his later years was moving with family to take care of him from NJ to VA and he had a box of assorted mauser actions. As an ordnance NCO he did alot of small arms repair & salvage in europe until the end of the war. He was a police pistol team member before the war and old enough to not be posted to a combat MOS back then. Anyhow he did alot of target shooting until the late 60's. He had about a dozen 98 actions... matching with bolts in a wooden crate in the basement (I gave him then $50 an action.. he was going to toss them in the trash !). Not to mention the scores of custom rifles he built with other actions he sent home. One action was flat brand new - a karab 98b with scope mounts on it. Years down the road I showed it to a buddy from OH and he had two military marked scopes that slapped right on it !!. He badgered me so bad to acquire it I let him have it. He restored it back to it's karab b configuration with 99% E/6 & E/43 armorers parts. It's the only one I've ever encountered and same was said by my retired friend that got it from me. The old codger does not do internet so unless I take a 2 + hour drive not likely anyone will ever see pics of it .
Oh and the old fellow whom brought the actions home had some very nice german scopes on his custom target rifles... all sold off back in 1990.

 

[gew98]

I don’t like the vice marks on the receiver either. Same with the over stamped serial# on the barrel. And there are some more details that make me skeptical.
e.g. the font on barrel, receiver and stock are identical, but different to other Spandau 1914 rifles. It would be ok for a Spandau 1916 rifle. (Do not have a Spandau 1915 for comparison.) Maybe it was put together from salvaged parts at the GPK.
According to the German scope manuals the field armorers were allowed to repair the gun. But as soon as the scope, rings or bases were affected, the complete set had to be sent to the Gewehr-Prüfungskommision (GPK) at Spandau-Ruhleben for repair.
Hopefully I soon will find time to break it down, to search for other stamps on the barrel/receiver.
Unfortunately I do not know any genuine Georz 3x rifle over here, to compare it with.
Thanks

On a sidenote I have seen alot of gew98's with vice and monkey wrench marks on the barrels & receivers. It appeared alot of returning vets tried to disassmble rifles for transport stateside. My scharfschutzengewehr98 ( danzig 1917 ) has some monkey wrench marks on barrel & some visible on receiver no less. As well it took me no small amount of time and cost to find a scope for it's type of bases !!! ( 2 3/4 Busch ) The only period rifles I had that had major parts 'reserialed' were depot built from new & salvaged parts . Had a 17 Danzig that was built and serialed from previously unused armorers parts around a salvaged bolt !!. The receiver had only one proof on the R/S and had never been serialed until mated with that bolt when it was depot built.

 

[Amberg]

Thanks.

If you want to see some crude vice and monkey wrench marks, please have a look at this one. http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?6887-Salvaged-DWM-1905&p=46762#post46762
It never was outside Germany. OK, maybe during the war in France or so. ...

 

[Loewe]

I think it is both legit and a build around a salvaged receiver. The RR has the additional acceptance near the front of the receiver; I might add this additional acceptance is very typical of ones sometimes found on the 1915 builds (image of my old Spandau/CGH build - not all have this extra acceptance, about a third recorded do). Wolfgang, perhaps disassemble the rifle further, let us examine the underside of the barrel? Mine had fp immediately above this acceptance, centered in the middle of the underside of the barrel.

We have discussed this rifle already, but perhaps you can consider taking more pictures of the barrel, every picture I have of the stock and receiver/barrel above the stock suggest this is a later build composed of period parts. I am convinced this is a period rifle, not a postwar assembled project, the re-serial was done because the early Spandau's serialing often rides high on the receiver.

Does this rifle appear to you in hand as one having been 'salvaged' ?. If it is period legit I'd wager salvaged and most likely post 1915.

 

[Amberg]

The RR has the additional acceptance near the front of the receiver; I might add this additional acceptance is very typical of ones sometimes found on the 1915 builds (image of my old Spandau/CGH build - not all have this extra acceptance, about a third recorded do). .

Interesting markings on your Spandau/CGH! Thanks for showing!

Some more photos showing my Spandau 1914
Stock outside is overstamped. Inside same # (2310) as on the buttplate. Handguard unnumbered.
Bolt cutout shows the Spandau 1914 and a Danzig 1917

 

[Amberg]

overstamped serial#

 

[Loewe]

Thanks for the pictures, I am more convinced than ever, I see nothing suspicious and the methods used are typical of salvaged rifles, - except that it was made into a sniper rifle, which necessitated the serial be reapplied below the bases. Never seen one (another sniper rifle built from a salvaged receiver) exactly like it, but I do not have a large database of sniper rifles recorded.

 

[Old_glass]

Presumably Goerz were using a steel 'dummy scope' jig with rings to set up the bases and a corresponding jig to set up the rings on the scopes. They were a very forward-thinking company as can be seen from their binoculars and camera lenses.