question re my K- 43

[cstan]

A long time ago I acquired a AC 45 K-43 serialized "305d" with a bolt assembly numbered "7042". The gun is in very nice condition and a nice mixture of blued and phosphate metal parts. The "story" that came with it was that it was found (along with two other K-43's - all in almost unused condition) in a Luft barracks by a US Army officer - who sent them home.

My question is this - as this is a very late war piece, could it have been produced with parts on hand and hence the mismatched bolt?
I will be posting pic's sometime soon. Very blond stocks and all the goodies and manual in the stock.

Any info and opinions are welcome - if I owned Darren Weavers book - I bet I'd have my answer

 

[robinson479]

A long time ago I acquired a AC 45 K-43 serialized "305d" with a bolt assembly numbered "7042". The gun is in very nice condition and a nice mixture of blued and phosphate metal parts. The "story" that came with it was that it was found (along with two other K-43's - all in almost unused condition) in a Luft barracks by a US Army officer - who sent them home.

My question is this - as this is a very late war piece, could it have been produced with parts on hand and hence the mismatched bolt?
I will be posting pic's sometime soon. Very blond stocks and all the goodies and manual in the stock.

Any info and opinions are welcome - if I owned Darren Weavers book - I bet I'd have my answer

It's hard to say. I would imagine that if the parts are mis-matched there is a very good chance that they are either field replacements, or parts found and put into the rifle by the GI who sent it home. There is another possibility that it was replaced by a collector who broke the matching numbered part sometime in history. I don't think anyone will know for certain unless you talked with the veteran who brought it home.

There is a possibility that it was brought home from the war as you have it today, but I don't think we will ever truly know as collectors unless there is some sort of documentation.

 

[Brian Kowalski]

What Robinson said. Pretty unlikely that they left the factory mismatched, at least if the Germans shipped them out.

Another possibility, and most probably, is that all the rifles had their bolts removed (for "safety" reasons) at one point, then the bolts were put back in upon return. USGI's did not seem too concerned about matching numbers (they were just happy to have a "war trophy").

Did you ever look at the other rifles serial numbers he sent home? The matching bolts may be in there, I have seen that happen once before with these.

 

[cstan]

Thanks for your Reply

It's hard to say. I would imagine that if the parts are mis-matched there is a very good chance that they are either field replacements, or parts found and put into the rifle by the GI who sent it home. There is another possibility that it was replaced by a collector who broke the matching numbered part sometime in history. I don't think anyone will know for certain unless you talked with the veteran who brought it home.

There is a possibility that it was brought home from the war as you have it today, but I don't think we will ever truly know as collectors unless there is some sort of documentation.

While all this might be true my thought was that as this rifle was produced in March or April of 45 by then the Walther plant's had already been bombed and production was not "normal" and I was just wondering if others had seen similar late war K-43's with mismatched bolt assemblies - that look like they might have come off the line - that way.
Thanks for getting back ... Chris

 

[cstan]

Thanks for the Reply

What Robinson said. Pretty unlikely that they left the factory mismatched, at least if the Germans shipped them out.

Another possibility, and most probably, is that all the rifles had their bolts removed (for "safety" reasons) at one point, then the bolts were put back in upon return. USGI's did not seem too concerned about matching numbers (they were just happy to have a "war trophy").

Did you ever look at the other rifles serial numbers he sent home? The matching bolts may be in there, I have seen that happen once before with these.

Thanks for the thoughts Brian,
As I mentioned to the other member who replied, as the rifle was produced in March or April - and as the Wather plants had already been bombed - alot - I just thought that because of this - they might have shipped this rifle - as it is.

Unfortunately I don't know where the other two pieces wound up. I know that most k98's have mismatched bolts as they were surrendered with the bolts removed but based on the story that came with this gun - it was found in a locker and ot surrendered in the normal way.

Was just wondering of any of the other members have seen other very late war produced K-43's that are like mine.
Probably will have to talk with Darren Weaver to see what he knows & thinks.

Thanks much for the kind reply ... Chris

 

[RyanE]

I doubt many of the d block ac45 rifles left the factory. Most, maybe even all of them, were probably looted from Walther.

 

[GunKraut]

I know that most k98's have mismatched bolts as they were surrendered with the bolts removed...

I thought this myth had been debunked already. There is ample historical footage on YouTube showing German soldiers surrendering their rifles and not once have I seen a K98 or any other rifle dumped on the pile with the bolt removed. How were those alleged requirements supposed to be applied anyways to MP38, MP40 and MP44 and other sub machine guns capable of inflicting more harm on the captors with a 1/2 second trigger pull than a clumsy K98 with a full mag? Never saw one of those disassembled upon surrender either.

Another myth to be investigated is that of G41 shooters soaking their gas assemblies in a bucket of kerosine and ending up with their comrade's muzzle nut and front sight. How many were there in the bucket that they couldn't sort them out? Hundreds? Or did they clean and assemble them in pitch black darkness? With matching annular gas piston and gas cylinder including attached front sight obviously vital for proper operation and aim of the rifle, I'm sure soldiers made an effort to put "their" parts back on the rifle. After all, there were good reasons for serial numbering parts in the first place.

And the myth of leftover/rejected G41 milled bolt housings used in the production of early BLM G43 and last ditch K43... The G41 bolt housing is shorter and has larger cutouts for the bolt carrier latch compared to their G/K43 counterpart. The slot for the stripper clip is also set further back on the G41 bolt housing.

Has anyone ever seen a copy of the alleged requirement for USGI to remove and surrender the bolts of their war trophies upon boarding the vessel home?

 

[Brian Kowalski]

Interesting discussion, we may never know the true answer. There are all kinds of theories on this. Fact is, there are a lot of vet bring backs with mismatched bolts only.

Also, at this time period (late c and d blocks), we tend to see a few rifles with proofed but un-numbered complete bolt/carrier assemblies. Are these items just pulled off the factory floor (not numbered yet), assembled by GI's (with parts laying around) or something else.

 

[Gunrunner]

FWIW--In almost 40 years of collecting I have seen and owned several late K43's in near new condition and they were all matching, these late rifles all left the factory matching. I also have a G43 ac45 in the d block with a cosmetic machined receiver with a completely unnumbered bolt assembly, there had been other G43 ac45s reported on the old G/K Forum that had the same features as mine.

Chuck

 

[Brian Kowalski]

Clearly, the situation at the Walther factory just before, during and after actual capture/post war must have been quite chaotic, to say the least.

Another interesting topic is how much "stuff" was actually sent to BLM prior to capture. I am sure they sent just more than receivers for completion.

 

[cstan]

Reply re my late war K-43 post

Interesting discussion, we may never know the true answer. There are all kinds of theories on this. Fact is, there are a lot of vet bring backs with mismatched bolts only.

Also, at this time period (late c and d blocks), we tend to see a few rifles with proofed but un-numbered complete bolt/carrier assemblies. Are these items just pulled off the factory floor (not numbered yet), assembled by GI's (with parts laying around) or something else.

I'm sure I'll never know the "real" story and I know that after 50 years of collecting primary Germany military rifles that most all pieces did come off the assembly line with totally matched parts.
The thing that prompted my question was the lateness of this receiver's production and the fact that I know the "normal" production procedures were far from "normal" - at this late time in the war.
Also until I post pic's, let me just say that the serial number and Waff amp proof on the bolt don't have the crispness of ordinary production bolts. This also say's to me - late war production. Also the coloration of the receiver and bolt housing matches perfectly.
It came with a ZF-41 "K" marked scope and mount on the rifle - which I will include with the pic's of the rifle when I get to posting the pic's.
Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and speculations.
It does seem very plausible to me that at that late date they might have just produced some K-43's with the parts on hand - like some of the K-98's that came out at that time period w. unmarked bolts or a miss mash of miss matched parts - just to get the weapons "to the front".
This happened and so maybe it happened with this piece of mine - ????

 

[GunKraut]

Your ac45 is a pretty late dual guide version manufactured within the d-block. If you think the no-letter bolt assembly is original to your rifle, you need to somehow explain the simultaneous presence on the shop floor of your barreled receiver and a bolt assembly that has been manufactured and numbered to a different rifle long before your receiver ever hit the assembly line. What would be the likelihood of "7042" having been a test rifle, a dud or a factory return, broken down and used as a parts donor?

Recently someone quoted from an interview with a former Wehrmacht soldier where he claimed the overpowered G43 gas system already lead to self destruction and bolt failure while still in active service at the front. Sometimes the extractor disintegrated. Hence, maybe your bolt assembly is a genuine wartime replacement. Obviously, the G43 to the very right in the picture below has been robbed of its magazine and maybe also of its bolt assembly, who knows?

 

[mrfarb]

K98k rifles didn't come off the factory line as finished rifles with "a miss mash of miss matched parts" late in the war, that's a yarn that has been spread for years to help sell mismatched rifles in years gone by (the only caveat I might have for that is a very few bnz45 rifles with mismatched small bolt parts that appear to be from the factory making bolts functional, but even then only on the very last rifles- bolt bodies themselves are numbered to match). Factories are set up to use new components in production in specific sequence laid out by the HeersWaffenamt in TL bulletins. Similarly, factories didn't rework rifles, it was beyond the scope of what they were meant for. Numbered components that might have been recycled into the system were scrubbed and renumbered. With that said, the end of the war left many unfinished guns laying about, which were most likely assembled and traded to GI's for food or favors.

Your K43 has a mismatched bolt in it. Is it original? Who knows, but the reality is even if you could prove beyond a doubt it was factory built like that, it's value is diminished just the same as a bolt mismatch done postwar. As Brian stated, nobody knows what happened in the last days, and your rifle is from the very end of the end of production. Thousands of similar ac45 K43 d block rifles were built with matching bolts or completely unmarked bolts, so it's not a pattern that's seen in collecting circles (mismatched bolt d block rifles).

I look forward to photos, should be a neat piece.