Novice needing info...Spandau Gew 98 stock disc.

[old dogs]

Thought I'd come to the experts for info on this recently acquired Gew 98. Seems to be a nice piece, all matching excluding bolt assembly and cleaning rod. Specifically looking for info on this stock disc. Thanks fella's greatly appreciated.

 

[heavy10]

Looks like a jack pot.

I believe the disc and the muzzle cover are Navy 'see battalion', very desirable.

 

[mauser1908]

III S.B. = Drittes Seebataillon (German Marines garrisoned in Tsingtao, China). I’m perplexed by the R, hopefully Jeff and Paul have insight on that. The gun is wonderful!

 

[Warrior1354]

Yes a very desirable weapon. I think what's even more interesting is it's a 1913 Spandau production rifle that's Army proof and not Navy proof. Sounds like it was an Army production rifle but it was accepted by the Navy. Are there any markings on the butt plate at all and could you please show a picture underneath the bolt handle?

Again a very scarce rifle and thank you for sharing if you have any specific questions I would gladly try to answer them and so will others here as well.

 

[old dogs]

Thanks fella's for the interesting info on rifle. Large part of my interest in military firearms of course is their history. From the info you provided I've been reading up Tsingtoa. Is it no surprise that once settled in, Germany wasted no time in starting it's own brewery. Gotta love history!

 

[Spartaner545]

Regarding the unit marking.

I have never seen anything like that. Since there is no unit marking regulation left to study, when it comes to the imperial navy we can only take aducated guesses. Within the last 10 years i have seen quite a lot of Seebatiallon unit markings on bayonets and rifles but never with another letter combination then the "S.B.". The only two exaptions i know of for an additional letter on the disc is an either "E" for the "Ersatz-Seebatiallons" or "St." for the "III. Stamm-Seebataillon".
This plus the fact that in 1913 an army rifle was given to the imperial navy without any navy markings makes this quite odd in my opinion. Unit markings can be faked easily... just my thought on this.

But when we decide to see these markings as real the only solution i can come up with would be the "R" for "reitend/beritten" (engl. mounted).

In 1914 the III. S.B. was stationed in Kiautschou and was made out of:
four regular companys,
one mounted infantry company
one navy field battery
one navy pioneer company
one MG company with two platoons

In total 1450 men and officers.

The mounted company was 135 men and officers strong so the rifle number 124 would fit. I still have my doubts about the "R" for "reitend/beritten" as this was usually stamped with an lower case "r" but thats all i can think of with the III. S.B. R. 124.

Here is a link with some more info and pictures about mounted navy infantry: http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/seebatallion mounted.htm

Maybe someone else has a better idea or can provide some other thoughts.

With kind regards

Vincent

 

[Warrior1354]

Great information posted Vincent! Love your information you provide. Have to say you really do find some interesting finds in your data. I think what may help explain more about this rifle would probably be a better picture of the right side of the receiver, a picture of underneath the bolt handle, and maybe the butt plate. Maybe it's Depot marked for the Navy or an unknown Depot that's not heard of?

Either way it's an interesting rifle to say the least like I said I've been researching Navy contracts quite a bit lately trying to gather more information on them.

 

[old dogs]

Added a few additional photo's. Certainly hope they are of some help. I apologize for the contortion, they don't seem to upload in correct position. Will be happy to include more if needed in order to satisfy this mystery. Thanks again!

 

[feldmütze]

Regarding the unit marking.

I have never seen anything like that. Since there is no unit marking regulation left to study, when it comes to the imperial navy we can only take aducated guesses. Within the last 10 years i have seen quite a lot of Seebatiallon unit markings on bayonets and rifles but never with another letter then the "S.B.". The only exaption for another letter on the disc is an "E" for the Ersatz-Seebatiallons or "St." for the III. Stamm-Seebataillon.
This plus the fact that in 1913 an army rifle was given to the imperial navy without any navy markings makes this quite odd in my opinion. Unit markings can be faked easy... just my thought on this.

But when we decide to see these markings as real the only solution i can come up with would be the "R" for "reitend/beritten" (engl. mounted).

In 1914 the III. S.B. was stationed in Kiautschou and was made out of:
four regular companys,
one mounted infantry company
one navy field battery
one navy pioneer company
one MG company with two platoons

In total 1450 men and officers.

The mounted company was 135 men and officers strong so the rifle number 124 would fit. I stil have my doubts about the R for reitend/beritten as this was usually stamped with an lower case r but thats all i can think of with the III. S.B. R. 124.

Here is a link to with some more info and pictures about mounted navy infantry: http://s400910952.websitehome.co.uk/germancolonialuniforms/seebatallion mounted.htm

Maybe someone else has a better idea or can provide some other thoughts.

With kind regards

Vincent

Here's one of mine, a 1915 Spandau with KM marked disk, with no other KM markings. I'll only post the one pic of it, to not hijack the Op's post, & will post other pics in a new thread.
The Op's KM unit marking looked familiar, so I looked through some of my bayos & look what I found:

 

[Amberg]

In 1914 the III. S.B. was stationed in Kiautschou and was made out of:
four regular companys,
one mounted infantry company
one navy field battery
one navy pioneer company
one MG company with two platoons

The mounted company was 135 men and officers strong so the rifle number 124 would fit. I still have my doubts about the "R" for "reitend/beritten" as this was usually stamped with an lower case "r" but thats all i can think of with the III. S.B. R. 124.

Maybe someone else has a better idea or can provide some other thoughts.

No, no better idea or thoughts.
I totally agree with you. An unknown and most unusual unit stamp, but most likely for Reiter/reitend.
Instead of a company#5 they used the "R" stamp.
The 5th company of III.S.B. was the mounted infantry company and they too had a very distinctive bandoleer that can be seen on some of the photos of the link above.
That bandoleer was issued to no other unit of the German Imperial Army.

 

[Loewe]

Better pictures would be nice, however I am less convinced than some, it certainly is outside of normal KM trends and standards.

However, in support of its authenticity, Jeff Noll recorded a similarly dated and marked rifle in his book (page 114): 1913 Spandau 9060 c III.S.B.R.321, which he then attributed the "R" to Rekrutendepot.

This is beyond my specialty, but it must be of some value (comfort) that two such maker-date and unit marked are reported to exist. (possibly in the same block, - it looks like a potential c-block like Jeff's report, which would lend considerable credibility to this rifle's authenticity)

 

[old dogs]

Wow..the strength of info you guys provide on this subject is amazing. As much as it’s greatly appreciated I find it a little difficult to converse and share info using the format of a forum. I would certainly like to provide as many quality photos as needed but possibly through email. Feel free to contact me if needed and much thanks for the valued info. Gonecruizin@comcast.com Thanks..Gary

 

[Warrior1354]

Interesting data Paul that another one was found as a 1913 Spandau in the C letter block. If the rifle posted is also in the c letter block that would tell me a small lot was probably contracted out to the Navy then by this manufacturer in 1913.

 

[old dogs]

For the sake of interest this rifle is indeed a "C" block. 9741/c

 

[Warrior1354]

Wow that's even better two known rifles made by Spandau in 1913 with navy markings that can't be a coincidence in the same letter block. So that tells me the Navy had a small contract order by Spandau, but instead was accepted by the Army and then was diverted to the Navy. I'm going to go through my data on 1913 production rifles on Spandau. It may give some insight possibly when the contract order started and when it ended my even give us some numbers.

 

[chrisftk]

Thanks fella's for the interesting info on rifle. Large part of my interest in military firearms of course is their history. From the info you provided I've been reading up Tsingtoa. Is it no surprise that once settled in, Germany wasted no time in starting it's own brewery. Gotta love history!

You can still buy Tsingtao beer. It's a German style lager brewed in China.

On the unit marking, I've got a SG 98 with a Ersatz SB II unit marking. I believe the muzzle cap is legitimate, but I'm dubious on the disc, it doesn't seem to match any other SB convention I've seen. Either way the rifle is a treasure though.

 

[old dogs]

So, can I assume the hypothesis (I love using big words) amongst the group is that this rifles service within the III Seebattlion will always remain in question? As a collector, and as most of you, I always try and gather as much info as I can on each piece, catalog it, and tag it for future reference...and besides my wife can appreciate it in case I drop dead tomorrow. Who knows, this rifle may wind up in another estate sale one day and at least the next potential owner will have a bit of hard earned info. Thanks again fellas...Gary

 

[Loewe]

I think it is safe to say that the consensus is that it is authentic though the meaning of the unit marking is still in question. Wait for Jeff Noll to see this and offer his take, which may have changed in the last 3 decades, and also give our German contributors some time to consider the historical context. I have heard a theory that sounds probable but we should have patience with sorting this out further.

 

[Jeff Noll]

Seabataillon Regimental Marking.

I am remiss on replying. The "R" stands for Radfahrer I.E Radfahrer-Kompagine. The first obvious detail is the lack of a Kompagnie Nr. on this stock disc. I was unaware that this Seabataillon had a bicycle company. Credit for this translation goes to Klaus Schad. He is a world class regimental marking subject matter expert. He has a magnificent library of German language contemporary books. My original call of it being a Rekrutendepot is incorrect.

Also this Gewehr 98 in not a Radfahrer model. I guess all German bicyclists did not carry bicyclists rifles after all!

 

[chrisftk]

Gary, if Jeff and Paul have blessed it, you should be good to go. They are two of the finest imperialists I know!

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