Low Turret AJACK 4x90

[EOD100]

Just joined the forum whilst searching the net for info on my (new to me) Low Turret scope and mounts. I picked this up last week. Came from an estate sale.
The leather scope cap strap was twisted round the tube, leaving a faded line around the scope.
The front ring has the number 15515 stamped on it, which is repeated under the rear ring.
Unusually it has the mounts attached, complete with solder underneath where they were detached.
The leather cap is stamped 44

Reading the forum there was mention of a byf45 Rifle with the number 15515. Enquries with Pisgah suggest that probably isn't the same rifle as there was no mention of it being a sniper. Besides it is a 1945.

Happy to receive comments or advice regarding the scope and suggestions of which year of rifle it would have been on so I can make a sympathetic replica.

Also picked up a set of High Turret rings stamped with 24159.

 

[EOD100]

More photos

 

[EOD100]

Scope serial number

 

[Dave Roberts]

Nice LT Scope & Rings notice the earlier style/type locking lever with detent spring held in place with screw and earlier solid stop pin for locking lever a hard example to come by . Thanks for sharing

 

[mauser99]

very nice upper ! Sad to think this rifle was all together at some point then this was removed !! for what reason ???? hate to even think about it.....sad...

looking again.. now you have another set of rings and bases ??? another rifle dismantled and destroyed..

 

[mdarnell19]

Welcome to the forum. Nice looking set.

 

[Philip]

I can only echo what the others have said and I will add that I suspect that the scope was used originally at least on build from the early summer timeframe of 1943, perhaps a d or e block as just an educated guess. For me personally this scope would qualify as one of earliest Ajack turret mount numbers that I have actually seen.

 

[Absolut]

I can only concur to @Philip - this is one of the lowest Ajack serials I've seen on a turret mount. Therefore a byf 43 coded rifle is most likely, but I would not dare to make a guess on a letter block.

If you are a bit patient I'm sure you'll even be able to find a former sniper rifle that had been stripped of its bases. Making a full replica using the original bases and rings IMHO is a bit risky - because everyone will look at it as a replica and this will detract interest and value off the original scope and mount.

 

[EOD100]

Thanks for the replies, all interesting stuff.

I am in the UK, so I expect this was a Vet bring back which, in 1968, when the Firearms Act required these souvenirs to be held on a Firearms Certificate, was then stripped down and the rifle handed in. Such a shame, especially as it could be legally held and still can.
The second set of rings came from a deceased Armourer's spares box. The history is unknown.

I doubt that finding an original sniper rifle, less scope, would happen here. K98's are thin on the ground in the UK, finding decent ones is hard enough, finding specific manufacturers and dates is harder, finding snipers (original) is damn near impossible.

I'll think carefully about what to do with it, but it will sit nicely in my current collection.

 

[Absolut]

Wouldn't the UK hold a firearms registry? Any chance that someone could search for the two rifle serials in this and see if they maybe still are out there?

 

[EOD100]

There is one, but it was only started in the last decade. Before that it was paper records or local regional ones, none of which remain. The Police won't allow access to the public.

 

[Philip]

I can only concur to @Philip - this is one of the lowest Ajack serials I've seen on a turret mount. Therefore a byf 43 coded rifle is most likely, but I would not dare to make a guess on a letter block.

If you are a bit patient I'm sure you'll even be able to find a former sniper rifle that had been stripped of its bases. Making a full replica using the original bases and rings IMHO is a bit risky - because everyone will look at it as a replica and this will detract interest and value off the original scope and mount.

You are correct and it was misleading of me to make a stab as I have NO idea of the specific block. I do know it’s about 4000 below where scopes can be found to be used (Ajack) in September and October of 1943. For me early, say even first 3/4 of 1943 turret production is almost a black hole in collector knowledge at least this collectors knowledge and I have spent over 30 years trying to dig information on that period. The obvious problem is that loose upper low turret mounts with scopes tell us nothing of the rifle letter block they went (late 1943 excepted) and most low turret rifles are missing factory matched upper mounts with scopes, at least pre i blocks certainly are.

 

[Thorne]

Thank you for sharing, always fun to read posts where gems like these come out of the closet.

Very nice set indeed, and even a nice condition leather scope caps.

 

[Absolut]

@Philip 42.xxx scopes are known with SSR mount so you might be right, it should be among the first LT Ajack scopes being used. Note that these very early scopes also have the focal adjustment fixture set on top of the tube (because that is usually were the cut was made for the ring to adjust; it got moved later to bottom and somewhen replaced by a screw only). But remember many Zeiss scopes were also used, and I suspect they were used prior to the changeover to other manufacturers as well, especially since first usage of those started in 1939/1940. Aren't the Zielvier scopes even of a different tube diameter?

Production chart for November 1941 already lists 600 K98k rifles with scope (of 1850 planned), May 1942 lists 150 scoped K98k rifles for the Luftwaffe, October 1942 lists 3732 scoped K98k rifles for the Heer (of 4000 planned), November 1942 lists 3423 (again of 4000 planned) for the Heer, December 1942 even 5771 (versus again 4000 planned) for the Heer, etc. To speak on 1943 and Heer, March were 4150 planned and 6050 actually made, April 4150 planned an 5030 actually made, May 4150 planned and 3474 made, June 4000 planned and 5288 made, August 4150 planned and 4797 made, September 4650 planned and 3605 made.

EOD100, I'll keep my eyes open for a nice replica for you. They sometimes turn up over here, I'm not far away from you and these sometimes do carry a CIP firing proof that you need, at worst that is not much of a problem either.

 

[EOD100]

Many thanks Absolut. CIP isn't vital. If I keep it for my own use, it doesn't need Proof. If I decided to sell, then I could proof the rifle in the UK.

 

[Philip]

@Philip 42.xxx scopes are known with SSR mount so you might be right, it should be among the first LT Ajack scopes being used. Note that these very early scopes also have the focal adjustment fixture set on top of the tube (because that is usually were the cut was made for the ring to adjust; it got moved later to bottom and somewhen replaced by a screw only). But remember many Zeiss scopes were also used, and I suspect they were used prior to the changeover to other manufacturers as well, especially since first usage of those started in 1939/1940. Aren't the Zielvier scopes even of a different tube diameter?

Production chart for November 1941 already lists 600 K98k rifles with scope (of 1850 planned), May 1942 lists 150 scoped K98k rifles for the Luftwaffe, October 1942 lists 3732 scoped K98k rifles for the Heer (of 4000 planned), November 1942 lists 3423 (again of 4000 planned) for the Heer, December 1942 even 5771 (versus again 4000 planned) for the Heer, etc. To speak on 1943 and Heer, March were 4150 planned and 6050 actually made, April 4150 planned an 5030 actually made, May 4150 planned and 3474 made, June 4000 planned and 5288 made, August 4150 planned and 4797 made, September 4650 planned and 3605 made.

EOD100, I'll keep my eyes open for a nice replica for you. They sometimes turn up over here, I'm not far away from you and these sometimes do carry a CIP firing proof that you need, at worst that is not much of a problem either.

Thanks for the information and reminder about the Ajack early use on SSRs, I had temporarily forgotten that when I posted. I have seen those scoped rifles production and planned figures earlier and I have always considered them to be based on Zf-41 production either in large part or total. One thing is for sure and that is there is no way they could have planned 4000 (more or less) Zf-39 type scope utilization each month from late 1942 (much less late 1941) onwards because actual production only reached a fraction of that number. Maybe Zf-41 and Zf-4 for G-43, if that had really worked out, would have brought them close to some 50,000 plus systems per year by 1943 of all types of optic equipped rifles

Clearly if one wants to understand production numbers and general timeframe’s of fitting out sniper rifles they have to look scope serial number ranges foremost. I know that approximately 15-16,000 Ajack scopes were produced for use or used anyway on Third Reich era sniper rifles. Of this number approximately 12,000 may have been used on turret mount systems but possibly no more than maybe 9-10,000 depending on LSR usage from the same production range.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Here is 1 such SSR example with Ajack 4X90 in 42XXX range both with focal adjustment