Kar98 marking question
- Thread starter sapper44
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I agree, this proof or acceptance is seen on P.08, Gewehr98's and even on bayonets (Bruce Karem's bayonet book shows one on page 100); this is the only 98a I have seen it on, though several G98's have it in the same position, the fireproof position like this. It is hard to make out in these pictures, but i have this rifle recorded from the July 2013 auction and the marking is the M/A seen on P.08 and G.98's.
I don't know if anyone really knows what it represents, other than the Reichsmarine, there are other markings associated with naval service, but your best bet for answers is to go to Jan Still's forum, or the other P.08 forums (they have another one that is very good, name escapes me at the moment), they have some of the best researchers in the hobby and odds are good that they have studied this more than any other collector group.
The pictures from 2013 show no unit marking on the takedown washer, the buttplate didn't show it straight on, but from the side views I do not think it had markings either. The stock looked sanded, but the pictures were not clear, and i could not make out the serial on the stock, but it "probably" wasn't the original stock, there was no clear "1920" on the stock, which they usually have when the receiver is marked. Of course it could have been sanded out, hard to say with the pictures i have. But the front band and TG matched, or seemed to.
I don't know if anyone really knows what it represents, other than the Reichsmarine, there are other markings associated with naval service, but your best bet for answers is to go to Jan Still's forum, or the other P.08 forums (they have another one that is very good, name escapes me at the moment), they have some of the best researchers in the hobby and odds are good that they have studied this more than any other collector group.
The pictures from 2013 show no unit marking on the takedown washer, the buttplate didn't show it straight on, but from the side views I do not think it had markings either. The stock looked sanded, but the pictures were not clear, and i could not make out the serial on the stock, but it "probably" wasn't the original stock, there was no clear "1920" on the stock, which they usually have when the receiver is marked. Of course it could have been sanded out, hard to say with the pictures i have. But the front band and TG matched, or seemed to.
WaPrüf2
RIP
The MA stamp is now thought to = one of (or both?) of the two Marinearsenals (Kiel & Wilhelmshaven).
Just to make things more interesting, I have a 1911 Danzig K98a, no 1920, but with a pin through the rear sight pivot with buttwasher added and marked to the Nordseeflotte. No MA.
Later: Also checked an Ostseeflotte G98M - no MA.
Just to make things more interesting, I have a 1911 Danzig K98a, no 1920, but with a pin through the rear sight pivot with buttwasher added and marked to the Nordseeflotte. No MA.
Later: Also checked an Ostseeflotte G98M - no MA.
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I think that is what Bruce wrote in his bayonet book, something along those lines, a naval ordnance shop. Some of the G98's look to be made up of leftover receivers, no signs of previous use, and only the M/A for a FP, so it probably does represent an ordnance facility build in those cases, but not enough examples, especially in original condition, or well documented, to know what the deal is for sure. At least as far as I have recorded them.
One thing is for sure, German naval related rifles are a queer bunch, more variation than the army examples, which seems to hold true in the Imperial through the nazi era, there are several odd variations or markings seen, and MauserBill once told me that his experience has shown them to be sloppiest of the bunch, probably due to the nature of the service, - the last to get small arms and having to do a lot of "make do" with salvaging. It is well known, or written about, that when WWI started they got their modern rifles plundered by the army, to the extent they could spare them. Seems the same in WWII, if not plundered they had a hard time getting new rifles, as evidenced by SDP relationship with them, most G29/40's went to them, most of the builds associated to the KM were Radom G29 parts, or G29/40 parts.
Maybe the OP can do a picture of the barrel, removal of the handguard should reveal if the barrel is a replacement, also any markings on the stock, if any exist, the pictures i have do not show markings well, looks like a cypher and acceptance might be on the RS, but very faint.
Bruce's page 100, I doubt he would mind, for those that do not have the book, which is hard to find today.
One thing is for sure, German naval related rifles are a queer bunch, more variation than the army examples, which seems to hold true in the Imperial through the nazi era, there are several odd variations or markings seen, and MauserBill once told me that his experience has shown them to be sloppiest of the bunch, probably due to the nature of the service, - the last to get small arms and having to do a lot of "make do" with salvaging. It is well known, or written about, that when WWI started they got their modern rifles plundered by the army, to the extent they could spare them. Seems the same in WWII, if not plundered they had a hard time getting new rifles, as evidenced by SDP relationship with them, most G29/40's went to them, most of the builds associated to the KM were Radom G29 parts, or G29/40 parts.
Maybe the OP can do a picture of the barrel, removal of the handguard should reveal if the barrel is a replacement, also any markings on the stock, if any exist, the pictures i have do not show markings well, looks like a cypher and acceptance might be on the RS, but very faint.
Bruce's page 100, I doubt he would mind, for those that do not have the book, which is hard to find today.
Attachments
Very nice, the M/A is on the wrist, that was not shown earlier, - that is good to see, typically the wrist acceptance is where depots marked rifles they worked on, though not always, but most often and that it is here lends credibility to it being an ordnance acceptance. So far, no other rifle recorded with M/A shows this, they might have it, but I have not been able to record it. Try the left side of the buttstock, the right too, typically when a "1920" property marking exists on the receiver, it is also found on the LS, but perhaps this stock was a later addition when the RM reworked or repaired it.
The barrel is a replacement, while an Imperial barrel it is not the original barrel, probably installed when the RM worked it over. It might be worth looking under the stock, to see if they used the M/A as a fireproof on the barrel. Offhand, I do not recall 98a barrels being made in the interwar period, but typically the re-barrels have the FP next to the serial, even if the barrel is Imperial, this one lacking the FP above the wood might mean the FP is below the wood as was typical of Imperial era rifles (and early interwar production), but being navy they might have not FP the barrel, and the receiver M/A being a general FP.
Though it should be said that several RM reworks have the M/anchor as a FP, but too few to establish any pattern.
Though it should be said that several RM reworks have the M/anchor as a FP, but too few to establish any pattern.
