German Captured French Berthier Mle 1892

[PaulMauser]

Hello,

Finally got around to taking some photos of a French Berthier Mle 1892 carbine, in 8mm Lebel. As a base rifle, it is all matching as it left the factory in 1898, with it's original cartouche. Of interesting note is the lack of "N" marking on the receiver, so it likely fell into German hands prior to 1932 (at which point virtually all small arms in France were updated to fire the new balle N cartridge).

I would suspect a WW1 capture, but the depot mark throws me off. (It could very well have been in Polish hands, and thus would have escaped any French updates).

The Germans filled in the French sling swivels, repaired the stock, re-blued the rifle, clipped the cleaning rod to seal the rod channel in place, and added a Kar 98 style sling cuttout. There is a "8" depot marking at the wrist.

There is what appears to be someones SIN on the receiver and floorplate, possible USGI bringback? not sure.

I would love to hear people's thoughts on this, and if they are leaning WW1 or WW2 captured. (There is no doubt it is sporting a WW2 sling, but you never know when that was added).

Thanks!

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

Thanks for the pics and nice rifle ! Chances are that it was indeed captured during WWI.
If there's an added recoil lug at the back of the receiver (modification made in 1909, see pic), you can be sure it was in the French army between 1909 and 1932.
How is the bore condition ?

 

[AndyB]

There were large numbers of french rifles in Poland, Jugoslavia and other state of south balkan Greece, so it could be captured by Germans in early of WW2, i dont believe it could be german capture from WW1.

 

[Guillaume d'Orange]

There were large numbers of french rifles in Poland, Jugoslavia and other state of south balkan Greece, so it could be captured by Germans in early of WW2, i dont believe it could be german capture from WW1.

Yes, it may have been taken from another country than France (do you know stamps or markings that could indicate which one ?)
As it did not get the N cartridge rechambering of 1932 and also escaped the 1916 modification (addition of a box magazine, allowing to fire a 5-shot clip), there are still chances that it left the French army between 1909 and 1932, or even between 1909 and 1916.

 

[AndyB]

By non changing to M16 is possible it was delivered to Serbia already in war? I assume not all M92 were refurbished to the 5 round M16 standarts.

 

[PaulMauser]

Maybe light could be shed if the depot marking could be figured out, anyone know what depot "8" is?

I don't think its Serbian, theirs are usually rougher, and crown marked, this one is not.

It is not WP marked for Poland, but a lot escaped that marking.

I would lean to captured by the Germans in WW1, especially since no features were changed since it left the factory, it even had it's rod, which many were removed by France in 1916.

 

[tokarev38]

French riles used by Polish army were not specifically marked per se, unless they went through refurbishing process or repair in a repair facility or depot. Then they could be marked with Z in a triangle, small Polish eagle stamp or depot stamp on the side of the stock butt.

Jack

 

[AndyB]

When the german refurbishment is from WW2 (similar sling is typical for Kar98k) so possibility that germans captured in WW1 is very low, no would remain in Germany post 1919. Remained only german new Mauser 98 in army and police.
Serbia got it in Italy or in island , so when not refurbished in time no problem have any marking, similar to Poland, no WP could be found on french rifles probably. That stamp was used on new rifles obtained in armory not by refurbishment.

 

[MikeS0000]

Hello Mr. Mauser & Folks -

Just joined after hearing from a member. I found this thread and thought I would post this photo after reading the thread. Part of my collection, and I believe Paul Scarlata has used it in a couple of his articles.

Thanks for looking!

- Mike

 

[PaulMauser]

Thank you for sharing! That is such a neat photograph.