Focal Adjustment SS Double Claw dow+

[Absolut]

I know, it is just one of 5000 dow+ scopes that were delivered to the SS, but this one I had to have. It is my first dow+ which obviously was not on a SS contract bnz coded rifle. Not only the letter c suffix to the rifle serial confirms this, the serial even is five digit. My suspicion was that rifle 17869c originally most likely was a byf43 rifle (byf44 would be too little chances, and no other codes that I could think of with a five digit serial and c block from this timeframe?), but would appreciate others thoughts on this.

Second thing to point out, while it is commonly known that the w of dow+ consists of two stamped v's, when looking very close at my scope it actually also appeared to me the d was actually the same o, but with an added I. Did anyone else ever thought the same?

Oh, and we once had a serial listing for those scopes. This one, being A 2080, already puts itself almost at the middle of the production. I always was under the impression the focal adjustment scopes are rarer than the non focally adjustable ones (for whatever reason), but this one would indicate that almost half of the production was focal adjustable. Does anyone remember this thread and possibly has the link to it?

PS: neat to see in the last three pics where the claws have blueing and where not. Easy to notice where they were hand filed to fit the rifle and not blued again.

 

[Hercules]

Nice Scope Georg. My DOW Scopes have the V V for W. Never noticed the d before. My rings were adjusted similar to yours for fitting. I did not remember the 5000 figure for these rifles. Where did you get that figure? I don't doubt as they are rare.

 

[mdarnell19]

Georg, go read the chapter on SS rifle. byf43 rifles were also used for SS double claws. There has been other SS double claw scopes seen with a similar serial number. As Brian mentioned many of these scopes seem to have the front ring adjusted/moved. I believe it is likely because dow installed the rings on the scope before shipping them and many of needed adjusting when being installed to rifles. Just my theory.

And yes, I started that thread years ago with scope serial numbers. I'll have to see if I can find it but you are probably better at search the forum for it than I am. Thanks for sharing. How are the optics? Most seem to be very cloudy.

 

[Absolut]

I did not remember the 5000 figure for these rifles. Where did you get that figure? I don't doubt as they are rare.

From the original SS order of these rifles where I have the documents.

@mdarnell19 I know that byf43 were used (as well as bcd43), but wanted to know if someone ever had seen something else. BTW, your website is not fully correct on those. Waffenwerke Brünn preferrably wanted to sell the SS a newly made rifle with the bases and even tried to convince the SS that otherwise it means that they will have to reblue the rifle (whereas with newly made ones they would only need to blue the rifle once), but SS decided to nevertheless provide the rifles to be converted to them (you state "According to war time documents, the Waffen SS contacted Waffenwerke Brünn A.-G. to supplies rifles. However, the SS was not allowed to procure newly made rifles from Brünn but instead had to provide rifles to be fitted with scopes.")

Re your question on the "moved front ring". Actually I'd have to check, but I had remembered it other way round, that shortly after beginning dow+ only supplied the scopes and the rings with bases were made at Waffenwerke Brünn, what also explains why those are Eagle 63 marked (and only those are the ones that we see with loose front ring). The often encountered problem of a not well done soldering job imho is the reason why they later switched to spot welded rings.

The scope is, as you had correctly suspected, quite cloudy. The reason for this is the reticle is not a wire reticle but printed on a glass plate. And this one sits right under the screw on the elevation ring, so very easy to bring dirt to it either. The very few I ever saw which were super clean were always those which had the reticle being replaced with a wire reticle post WWII.

 

[mrfarb]

My opinion is scopes were supplied with rings already installed, as the assembly has the scope serial numbers on the rear ring. Early scopes did have serial on the tube and it’s possible early sets were not assembled. Also, there is no early or late use of scope with focal adjustment, they are used randomly throughout the whole 5000 serial range, with some even having spot welded rings. Imo all of these assemblies are late, and maybe the spot welding was due to lack of solder, spot welding seems to be a substitute for quality soldering.

 

[Hercules]

From the original SS order of these rifles where I have the documents.

Thanks Georg. You sent me some of that info. Did not remember the number. I knew it was a small number of rifles. At least there is a number to it now. Would love to see the document.

I think the rings came on the scope as they had the serial in later rings and the reason they got moved to fit rifle.

I posted my two BNZ SS Double Claw Rifle used scopes on here already. One has ocular focus and other does not.

 

[Dave Roberts]

Georg
Per Your question (I wanted to know if someone ever had seen something else.) Are You only referring to the Coded Rifles with 5 Serial or are You asking about other Codes besides those already known and documented such as BNZ , BCD and BYF ???

 

[Absolut]

I'll re check the files if they state anything on supply with or without the rings. At least the bases were made at Waffenwerke Brünn since there was a huge discussion on how they would be able to get the steel for those and ended up with the SS supplying that too. I'll see what I can find.

Dave, I was mainly wondering if the five digit with suffix serial could had been from a different code year other than byf43 (like did anyone ever see a byf44 SS DC?), what theoretically could had been possible, but of course not likely.

 

[Hercules]

I'll re check the files if they state anything on supply with or without the rings. At least the bases were made at Waffenwerke Brünn since there was a huge discussion on how they would be able to get the steel for those and ended up with the SS supplying that too.

I have seen an unnumbered DOW SS Double Claw Scope with WaA rings and no Rifle Serial Number on it as well. Probably more scopes ordered than rifles for spares. Not all scopes fit all rifles. Possibly more support for theory rings were moved once on tube already from DOW.

Nice scope. I’ve only seen one non BNZ SS Double Claw for sale. I’m sure there are more. I just don’t see them, except in a book and that one time. I think it was at Simpson’s LTD.

 

[mrfarb]

Most likely that serial corresponds to a byf43. There were a lot of byf43 (and others like bcd43 and dou43) in SS inventory that were transferred there by the HWA for payment to the SS for labor supplied to Steyr in HWA production. It’s a dirty story, but documents show this transfer of weapons in early 43. These were in SS inventory and made it to the SS DC program. I have seen all 3 (byf43, bcd43 and dou43) in SS DC.

 

[Dave Roberts]

I'll re check the files if they state anything on supply with or without the rings. At least the bases were made at Waffenwerke Brünn since there was a huge discussion on how they would be able to get the steel for those and ended up with the SS supplying that too. I'll see what I can find.

Dave, I was mainly wondering if the five digit with suffix serial could had been from a different code year other than byf43 (like did anyone ever see a byf44 SS DC?), what theoretically could had been possible, but of course not likely.

Georg , I though thats what you were asking about just wanted to be sure . That said I found pics of an SSDC Rifle about 8 to10 yrs ago the rifle had already sold after close examination of the pics , I pretty certain it was a legitimate original example and it was not one of the known codes . I shared the pics with a friend and he agreed it was an original SSDC . I don't recall if I had sent You the pics or if I had told you about this SSDC rifle .

 

[Absolut]

Dug out the documents. To answer raised questions (some that I raised myself): they indicate that the scopes were supplied by Optikotechna complete, "with mounted holders" (original German text reads as "[..] mit aufmontierten Haltern geliefert werden."), that therefore only the fitting of the holder ends (feet) needs to be done, to which therefore a small allowance would be left.

What Brünn offered was:
a) Disassembly of the rifle, mounting the saddles (scope bases) and scopes, reblueing of actions and mounting the rifles (in case of rifles supplied by SS-Waffenamt) - 5 hours per rifle
b) Mounting the saddle and scopes on new rifles of their production - 4.5 hours per rifle
They calculated 40 rounds and 1 1/2 hour work per rifle for proofing, with b the proofing would be cheaper by the normal proofing they otherwise would had underwent.

Price calculation for a) was K 377,25 each and b) was K 337,46 each.

PS: Interesting details, Waffenwerke Brünn confirms that if the order is placed by 31.III.1943 (so up to end of March 1943) within 3 - 3 1/2 months of receiving the order, supply of the steel (for bases), rifles and scopes the first 500 could be delivered. From that point on 500 per month could be supplied.
Assuming they placed the order in time (so by end of March) this means the first 500 were delivered by End of June 1943. Adding 9 months of 500 each to fulfill the total order of 5000 this would indicate the order could had been completed by end of April 1944. Oh, and they mentioned the interchangeability of scopes was NOT considered.

PPS: first inquiries regarding the scopes date as early as February 1942. So shortly after the SS SSR sniper rifles they seemed to have had needs for additional sniper rifles.

 

[Absolut]

Addendum which I never addressed, but maybe in this context ... did someone ever notice there seems to be different variations of the ring with the countermarking for the elevation setting? Some with milled flat portion with a line all the way on the ring, some with just half line and a circular dot (which do not seem to be turnable for zeroing either?).

 

[mrfarb]

What may be of interest- a few matching rifles with early scope serials (numbered on tube instead of ring) are all 1944 produced (sszza4). To me this precludes a 1943 start. Using the 43 dated rifles seems like it could happen, but knowing these were in SS depots and not supplied to the program by the Army makes them a poor indicator. That’s the problem with incomplete document series. Similar things happen with documents relating to G24t - if the documents were 100% true production of those would be 4x what they are.

You also have to remember that the SS would have to get approval from the Reichsministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion and they were really against the SS wasting valuable production hours- but clearly they got this done.

My personal opinion is these SS DC were started mid to late 44 and production carried into 1945. It would be nice to see documents one day- they exist, but the guy that has them refuses to share them publicly, which I think is a shame (it’s not anyone on this forum). He has shared them privately so at least we have that.