Erfurt 1916, Help needed to ID

[ColoradoStriker]

Hello all. I am pretty new to this hobby and would like some help. Just picked this up yesterday. Trying to figure out exactly what it is. It has similarities to a KAR 98A but some differences as well. The stock has no finger grooves. There is no stacking attachment. The sights front and rear look different. The sights on this one seem to be from a carbine, but like I say there are many differences as well so what model is it? It isn't a GEW98 but has the same front swivel attachment. The barrel is about 23.5". Is this an in between model or did someone toss some pieces together? Many thanks!

 

[ColoradoStriker]

Looking at Mauser Military Rifles of the World by Robert Ball, page 195, this rifle is similar to the German G 98 Transitional Model Rifle but with the turned down bolt of a Kar 98b Rifle found on page 197. Then when looking at page 201 of the same book, the stock of the German Standard Modell Short Rifle has a stock similar to this one in that there is no bolt take down circle, but it does have finger grooves. These rifles were made in 1933 so it's not that but interesting that it's a stock design that is close to the same.

 

[Loewe]

One word, modified (non-German done 100%); probably Spanish or Turk service, but the numerous photos are mostly of dubious value for answering questions. (look for stock markings, - the barrel too, but the configuration is not German applied)

*** Bob Ball was a fine man, I spent an afternoon with him 20 years ago and he was a fine man with a lot of war experience, but he was not a German rifle specialist. Really the only good work done on German military rifles is Storz various works (and they are general studies based upon archival research, poor on actual variations and personal observations....) and the works done by THE AUTHORS that provide us this site to ramble on about German rifle variations....

This rifle has been modified by another country, probably Turkey or the Ottomans but maybe Spain or some one else, -this is not a German modification.

 

[Cyrano4747]

*** Bob Ball was a fine man, I spent an afternoon with him 20 years ago and he was a fine man with a lot of war experience, but he was not a German rifle specialist. Really the only good work done on German military rifles is Storz various works (and they are general studies based upon archival research, poor on actual variations and personal observations....) and the works done by THE AUTHORS that provide us this site to ramble on about German rifle variations....

Seconding this. I can't speak to Ball as a person, and I'll take Loewe's word that he was a great guy, but his books have a lot of issues and should not be trusted as more than a general identification guide - e.g. model and type.

As a rough rule of thumb I don't think I'd trust anything written before 2000 or so. Even the German-language literature gets really, really spotty before then. Talking about references on German guns - I don't know enough about the work on American firearms to speak intelligently on it, but my limited understanding is that the field was in much better shape much earlier than our own, likely due to easier access to archival sources, more surviving archival sources, and the lack of a language barrier.

 

[ColoradoStriker]

One word, modified (non-German done 100%); probably Spanish or Turk service, but the numerous photos are mostly of dubious value for answering questions. (look for stock markings, - the barrel too, but the configuration is not German applied)

*** Bob Ball was a fine man, I spent an afternoon with him 20 years ago and he was a fine man with a lot of war experience, but he was not a German rifle specialist. Really the only good work done on German military rifles is Storz various works (and they are general studies based upon archival research, poor on actual variations and personal observations....) and the works done by THE AUTHORS that provide us this site to ramble on about German rifle variations....

This rifle has been modified by another country, probably Turkey or the Ottomans but maybe Spain or some one else, -this is not a German modification.

Great thanks for the help! That's a good start. I was sort of perplexed by this one as it was close to a German configuration but sort of a compilation, as you say probably done by another country. I didn't think it matched anything in Ball's book and hope I didn't give that impression.

 

[chrisftk]

Yeah 100% postwar rework. These used to be fairly common.

 

[ColoradoStriker]

I can get some better pics at some point when I have some time. The barrel does have markings that indicate it was imported by Navy Arms. Did they have a batch that was from a certain country? Would it be safe to say that this was a WWI German rifle that after the war was sold to another country (not manufactured specifically for a country but surplus later and modified)? Thanks again.

 

[ColoradoStriker]

Yeah 100% postwar rework. These used to be fairly common.

Thanks for confirming. Any way to determine country?

 

[chrisftk]

Thanks for confirming. Any way to determine country?

My money is on Turk, but can't say 100%.

 

[ColoradoStriker]

My money is on Turk, but can't say 100%.

Roger that, I will be striping it down in the next week or so, will post pics. Thanks again!