Early Walther PP SS rig

[joryfreeburg]

Here is a SS PP rig that I picked up at SOS the morning of setup day. Any feedback by the Walther guys here would be appreciated. I believe this pistol would be considered a type 2 variation by Stepan’s book and a variation 1 according to Whiteman’s book. The rig consists of the pistol numbered 985304 and 2 orphaned SS contract pp mags numbered 979022 and 981038. And a DRGM marked leading edge holster. I would love all comments about this setup from anyone who has input. I will be the first to admit that Walthers are not my strong suit in collecting. Anyone have any thoughts on which SS PPK/PP book is better? The Whiteman or Stepan book?

 

[joryfreeburg]

And the holster:

 

[RyanE]

The Whiteman book is not much more than an updated version of the Stepan book. I appreciate that Stepan's books include the index cards, so its better IMO. I don't really understand why, but I also hate Tom's "contract" numbering. Both are worth having IMO.

Very nice rig, and neat that it has two mags that are from the same period. The holster is very nice. I don't know that a "Type 1" RSHA PP as defined by Stepan actually exists. I think he simply assumed that since muzzle numbered PPK exist, PP probably also exist. Not an unreasonable assumption, but so far as I know, no one has ever seen one.

By the way, I've been looking for a copy of the "gold" edition of the Stepan book (the last one) if anyone knows where I can find one.

 

[slow10ker]

Nice SS, PP rig!! Buy Stepan’s book(s). There’s the red book and the black book. Both have dated info. But, it’s accurate….

 

[slow10ker]

I’m pretty sure nobody’s ever seen a muzzle numbered PP.

 

[mauser99]

nice rig ! its a treat seeing it in a black leading edge holster..

 

[joryfreeburg]

Very nice rig, and neat that it has two mags that are from the same period. The holster is very nice. I don't know that a "Type 1" RSHA PP as defined by Stepan actually exists. I think he simply assumed that since muzzle numbered PPK exist, PP probably also exist. Not an unreasonable assumption, but so far as I know, no one has ever seen one.

Thanks! I was fortunate enough to be in a hotel room by being with my friend where one of his friends was going to offer up a group of these pistols at SOS. I got second pick at the offerings.... he had two boxes with orphaned SS contract PP and PPK mags probably 150ish mags and I got to dig threw them and pick what I wanted. You don't get an opportunity very often in this game to take your pick of items in a long time collectors items....

 

[joryfreeburg]

nice rig ! its a treat seeing it in a black leading edge holster..

He had I think about 6 of those to pick from as well..........

 

[Bigdibbs88]

nice rig!

 

[mauser99]

well,you picked well cause the assembled rig looks like its been together since day one..

 

[JoeW]

The Whiteman book is not much more than an updated version of the Stepan book. I appreciate that Stepan's books include the index cards, so its better IMO. I don't really understand why, but I also hate Tom's "contract" numbering. Both are worth having IMO.

Very nice rig, and neat that it has two mags that are from the same period. The holster is very nice. I don't know that a "Type 1" RSHA PP as defined by Stepan actually exists. I think he simply assumed that since muzzle numbered PPK exist, PP probably also exist. Not an unreasonable assumption, but so far as I know, no one has ever seen one.

By the way, I've been looking for a copy of the "gold" edition of the Stepan book (the last one) if anyone knows where I can find one.

I think perhaps you misread Stepan's description of a Type One PP Variation:"This variation....reportedly have the after factory muzzle marked serial number and spine marked magazines. Example of this variation has not been seen observed by visual inspection but are listed in the collector databases." Type One PP Variation with serial numbers stamped on the slide under the muzzle are in collections and have been listed in the data bases of collectors. Without a serial number under the muzzle, it is not an RSHA issue pistol.

 

[Nehalem Man]

I'm not a Walther expert by any means. I'm curious to know what identifies this pistol as being a SS contract pistol and not just a commercial production 1938 PP?

 

[DogDoc]

I'm not a Walther expert by any means. I'm curious to know what identifies this pistol as being a SS contract pistol and not just a commercial production 1938 PP?

I may be corrected on this but I think the presence of the SN on the slide is what differentiates it from a commercial.

 

[Nehalem Man]

I may be corrected on this but I think the presence of the SN on the slide is what differentiates it from a commercial.

I'm wasting time at work and I was just watching this video from Legacy. At the 7:00 minute mark they show a PP with waffenamts on the left side and a serial number on the right side of the frame, but no serial number on the slide.

I have a 1944 PP with waffenamts that has the serial number on both the slide and frame. ??????

Is My Walther PPK and PP Commercial or Military?

Is my Walther PPK or PP commercial or military? Any gun collector or history buff needs to see this. We answer those questions and more!

www.legacy-collectibles.com

 

[RyanE]

Type One PP Variation with serial numbers stamped on the slide under the muzzle are in collections and have been listed in the data bases of collectors. Without a serial number under the muzzle, it is not an RSHA issue pistol.

I'm not trying to sound snarky or anything, but have you ever seen one? Reports are all well and good, but lots of "reports" turn out to be fake, wrong, etc. I would love to see one if they exist.

 

[RyanE]

I'm wasting time at work and I was just watching this video from Legacy. At the 7:00 minute mark they show a PP with waffenamts on the left side and a serial number on the right side of the frame, but no serial number on the slide.

I have a 1944 PP with waffenamts that has the serial number on both the slide and frame. ??????

Slide serial numbers were added around early 1942, so all of them (commercial, military, whatever) will be numbered after that. Prior to that date, slides had the serial number scratched inside, but were externally not numbered. The SS/RSHA pistols all had numbered slides, as did a few other contracts (Reichsbank was one I think). Early SS/RSHA guns were numbered by the depot at the muzzle, the rest were numbered by Walther at the request of the RSHA.

The Legacy Collectibles book on these is decent and worth picking up. The original books (which Legacy lifted everything from) that covered these have gotten expensive.

 

[JoeW]

I'm not trying to sound snarky or anything, but have you ever seen one? Reports are all well and good, but lots of "reports" turn out to be fake, wrong, etc. I would love to see one if they exist.

No sweat Ryan. No I haven't see one. Of course "reports" have turned out to be fake, wrong, etc., as are some of the serial numbers in Stepan's list. But we have physical evidence of early PPKs being numbered on the slide under the muzzle. And as the numbering on them moved to the right side of the slide, so did the numbering on early PPs. So to me, the circumstantial evidence of the consistency in the serial numbering of both the PPs and PPKs would lead me to believe the early PPs reported would be similarly marked as the PPKs.

And, as you correctly pointed out, Walther began applying the full serial number to the slide for all contract/commercial PPs at about 220xxx P, so a PP after that range must have a numbered magazine with full serial number and suffix for the gun to be considered of the RSHA contract.

 

[Scarey]

Thanks! I was fortunate enough to be in a hotel room by being with my friend where one of his friends was going to offer up a group of these pistols at SOS. I got second pick at the offerings.... he had two boxes with orphaned SS contract PP and PPK mags probably 150ish mags and I got to dig threw them and pick what I wanted. You don't get an opportunity very often in this game to take your pick of items in a long time collectors items....

Old thread but any chance the friend of a friend still has some SS mags? Looking for 280229 for my SS PPK. I'm taking any chance I can get!

 

[JoeW]

Thanks! I was fortunate enough to be in a hotel room by being with my friend where one of his friends was going to offer up a group of these pistols at SOS. I got second pick at the offerings.... he had two boxes with orphaned SS contract PP and PPK mags probably 150ish mags and I got to dig threw them and pick what I wanted. You don't get an opportunity very often in this game to take your pick of items in a long time collectors items....

The post a few days ago brought this thread back to my attention. Reading it I realized I was concerned more with my discussion with Ryan than the “SS PP rig” presented in the thread. My powers of observation must have been on vacation, as I looked again at the gun after the new post to the thread.

What I noticed in the attached image was the obvious difference in the fonts used for the serial numbering of the slide and frame. They are not the same. Yet this Type 2 is supposed to have matching factory numbered slide and frame. As I can't believe Walther maintained two sets of number stamps for these guns, I can only think that 1) the slide was numbered by SIPO arsenal on the side rather than under the muzzle which is not recognized in any printed analysis of the RSHA contract, or 2) the slide numbering is recent and to make a sale, two nearby numbered mags and holster were thrown in to boost the sale.

I asked Dieter Marshall about the gun and he replied that this serial range is more or less RFV or RJ PPs in his data base.

Did the long time collector who sold the gun have a table at the show? I set up on Thursday in 2023 but did hear of any group of RSHA Walthers being offered. Were the other guns you mentioned similarly marked PPs?

 

[JoeW]

Jory…
Have you checked the inside of this slide opposite the ejection port for the last three digits of the serial number that are scratched into the metal at the Walther factory?