Concentration Camp Rifle terminology

[Stephan98k]

In the last weeks I could see several posts mentioning so-called "Camp Rifles" or "Concentration Camp Rifles" and here is the link to one of those threads: Help on info on a k98 small bnz. 4 with single rune

You want a “camp rifle” - I’m assuming you mean a rifle made in a concentration camp?

None were actually assembled in camps, all were assembled at Steyr. But, if that’s your aim I’d avoid rune marked examples as they have few components made in labor camps. The most “camp made” guns are the bnz44 marked SS contract rifles as receivers, barrels, almost all metal components are made in labor camps. The rune guns were made mostly of Waffenamt accepted parts made at Radom, which also used forced labor but not at a camp.

But I get it, the rune means concentration camp made in all of the sales literature. It’s not as simple as the advertising brochures.

I really like the above comment about this topic regarding Steyr, it shows very well that it is not easy to find the correct term.

It is always very important to use the correct terms, otherwise misunderstandings can arise and the consequences are dramatic. We must always separate the terms "assembly" and "production" and use them correctly.

The K43 rifles was assembled at Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald by Concentration Camp inmates. The K98k rifles was also assembled (only limited barrel production in Buchenwald) at Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald by Concentration Camp inmates, many K98k's in fact. It could easily happen to call these "Concentration Camp rifles", but that would not be correct. Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald was located within the SS guard post chain, but not within the Concentration Camp (this is based on decisions by Albert Speer and most important!).


Pictured above is Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald.

There was a second K98k assembly line in Buchenwald and that one was inside the Concentration Camp, only this second assembly line is correctly referred to as "Concentration Camp Rifles".



Now to an important question regarding Steyr and the "SS contract rifles". I keep reading that the SS contract ended in October/November 1944. Where does this information come from? I couldn't find any evidence for this statement.

 

[flynaked]

Not sure if there is any documentation for that thought or not? It might be all empirical evidence from trends, BC’s and features go a long way in determining this I’m sure.

 

[biggymu]

In the last weeks I could see several posts mentioning so-called "Camp Rifles" or "Concentration Camp Rifles" and here is the link to one of those threads: Help on info on a k98 small bnz. 4 with single rune



I really like the above comment about this topic regarding Steyr, it shows very well that it is not easy to find the correct term.

It is always very important to use the correct terms, otherwise misunderstandings can arise and the consequences are dramatic. We must always separate the terms "assembly" and "production" and use them correctly.

The K43 rifles was assembled at Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald by Concentration Camp inmates. The K98k rifles was also assembled (only limited barrel production in Buchenwald) at Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald by Concentration Camp inmates, many K98k's in fact. It could easily happen to call these "Concentration Camp rifles", but that would not be correct. Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald was located within the SS guard post chain, but not within the Concentration Camp (this is based on decisions by Albert Speer and most important!).

View attachment 409685
Pictured above is Gustloff-Werke Werk II - Buchenwald.

There was a second K98k assembly line in Buchenwald and that one was inside the Concentration Camp, only this second assembly line is correctly referred to as "Concentration Camp Rifles".



Now to an important question regarding Steyr and the "SS contract rifles". I keep reading that the SS contract ended in October/November 1944. Where does this information come from? I couldn't find any evidence for this statement.

What are the physical differences between the rifles produced within the SS guard post chain and those produced within the concentration camp? Is there a way to delineate for proper reference?

 

[mrfarb]

I based my assumptions about the ending dates of SS contract on several things - first; trends in normal Heer 98k rifles which are easier to track based on serial number studies and barrel coding, which is generally linear. Second, HWA production/forcast documents which seem to end as production about that time. Lastly, the reality of the loss of Radom parts production, the documented move of HWA owned machinery to Gusen, and the necessity of replacing that parts production to continue Army contracts uninterrupted. The Gusen parts production was critical after that loss.

It’s nice that the full story of Gustloff is coming to light. It’s difficult to know every small detail due to the chaotic end of ww2, we deduce what we can until documentation arrives to sharpen the point (or flatten it!).

 

[Stephan98k]

What are the physical differences between the rifles produced within the SS guard post chain and those produced within the concentration camp? Is there a way to delineate for proper reference?

Yes, through small details we was able to identify these particular K98ks and the serial number range. At first it was just a assumption on my part and I couldn't prove it with documents. I searched in many archives and a few years later I had already found many documents with evidence. The SS deal with Gustloff-Werke about K98k assembly in Buchenwald is documented in these docs. Unfortunately, there were still unanswered questions in these documents and important things had not yet been proven.

The archive with the business documents of the Gustloff-Werke in Weimar was probably destroyed in the bombing raid in February 1945, which is why no further K98k documents can be found. I had to find other ways, I bought some more books and after a few thousand pages and more research, I had found some more leads and one name. Because I had already invested so much time and wanted to finally have clear evidence, I did something crazy. I searched the personnel records of more than 10,000 Buchenwald inmates and I was able to find some lost key documents last year.

While Bruce, Mike and Jon was working on the Volume II book, I could help with small insignificant things and I promised Bruce in 2017, that I would help him to solve the Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik and Gustloff-Werke puzzle. Bruce and Mike can write and explain much better than I can, I think they will write about everything in more detail in the Addendum book.

 

[Jdt]

Yes, through small details we was able to identify these particular K98ks and the serial number range. At first it was just a assumption on my part and I couldn't prove it with documents. I searched in many archives and a few years later I had already found many documents with evidence. The SS deal with Gustloff-Werke about K98k assembly in Buchenwald is documented in these docs. Unfortunately, there were still unanswered questions in these documents and important things had not yet been proven.

The archive with the business documents of the Gustloff-Werke in Weimar was probably destroyed in the bombing raid in February 1945, which is why no further K98k documents can be found. I had to find other ways, I bought some more books and after a few thousand pages and more research, I had found some more leads and one name. Because I had already invested so much time and wanted to finally have clear evidence, I did something crazy. I searched the personnel records of more than 10,000 Buchenwald inmates and I was able to find some lost key documents last year.

While Bruce, Mike and Jon was working on the Volume II book, I could help with small insignificant things and I promised Bruce in 2017, that I would help him to solve the Berlin-Lübecker Maschinenfabrik and Gustloff-Werke puzzle. Bruce and Mike can write and explain much better than I can, I think they will write about everything in more detail in the Addendum book.

Addendum book when? I got me some money still for a good book!

 

[Stephan98k]

I based my assumptions about the ending dates of SS contract on several things - first; trends in normal Heer 98k rifles which are easier to track based on serial number studies and barrel coding, which is generally linear. Second, HWA production/forcast documents which seem to end as production about that time. Lastly, the reality of the loss of Radom parts production, the documented move of HWA owned machinery to Gusen, and the necessity of replacing that parts production to continue Army contracts uninterrupted. The Gusen parts production was critical after that loss.

It’s nice that the full story of Gustloff is coming to light. It’s difficult to know every small detail due to the chaotic end of ww2, we deduce what we can until documentation arrives to sharpen the point (or flatten it!).

The trends are very important and Paul and everyone else involved have done extremely valuable work in this area. You are a Steyr expert, your opinion is very important to me. I was busy with other things and couldn't look into it in more detail. But maybe I have new information, therefore my questions. Would it also be possible that the SS contract ended in February 1944 after the bombing?

I did some searching in the forum and found this HWA production forecast document:

If it is this document, please do not use it as it would be a big mistake. The K98k marked in the document are not SS rifles! The Steyr SS contract is generally not shown in any of these "Fertigungsvorschau" documents.

These K98k for the SS mentioned in the notes are not regular distributions. These K98k are a payment to the SS for the hours worked by the Concentration Camp inmates in the K98k assembly line - at Gustloff-Werke Werk II Buchenwald.

The SS never received the K98k directly from the K98k manufacturers. Only special agreements with the SS, for work performed by Concentration Camp inmates in the K98k assembly line, were paid in kind, with K98k.

 

[biggymu]

Outstanding information and efforts. Thank you.

 

[Stephan98k]

Outstanding information and efforts. Thank you.

Thank you, but thanks go to the authors of the K98k books and for providing us with this forum. Thanks to all the members here who share their expertise and collectibles with us, the members who collect the data for the trends. I got a lot of my knowledge from the forum and books.

Maybe I will explain the word "Fertigungsvorschau" in more detail, I think there is a need for it. The translation "Production Forecast" is actually correct, but the correct definition of this term is missing. The definition is very important to understand the entire system.

 

[Stephan98k]

The "Overview of the Army's Armament Status" (Volume Weapons and Equipment) contains the following information on factory production, supplies and total stocks:

1.) Planung (Planning)
- The production program for the next 6 months, drawn up by the Reich Ministry for Armaments and Munitions in agreement with industry. The prerequisite for this planning is the timely and sufficient allocation of the raw materials, labor, machine tools and energy necessary to fulfill it.

2.) Fertigungs-Vorschau Wa A (Production Forecast Wa A)
- The production forecast by the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Office) for the next 6 months based on the already existing or assured allocation of raw materials, labor, machine tools and energy.

3.) Abnahme Wa A (Acceptance Wa A)
- The weapons and equipment manufactured and prepared for dispatch after acceptance by the acceptance departments of the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Office).

4.) Zugang Fz.In. (Incoming Fz.In.)
- Incoming weapons and equipment in the Zeugämter (depots) of the "Fz.In." from new production or repair, conversion and loot.

5.) Abgang Fz.In. (Outgoing Fz.In.)
- The supplies from the stocks of the Fz.In. were used for supplies, refreshment, new formation, reserve army, testing and acceptance purposes of the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Office) and for agencies outside the Army.

6.) Bestand Fz.In. (Stock Fz.In.)
- The supply stock available on the 1st of the reporting month.

7.) Verbrauch (Consumption)
- Reduction of the total stock due to losses in the troops and transfers from the Field Army to agencies outside the Army.

8.) Gesamtbestand (Total stock)
- The inventory available to the troops and Fz.In. on the 1st of the reporting month.


As you can read in the description above, the Fertigungs-Vorschau is not the actual production and we collectors do not need it to estimate the actual production, the relevant figures can usually be found on the other docs. But the Fertigungs-Vorschau is very useful for other things for us collectors. If the Fertigungs-Vorschau differs from the actual production, there are always certain reasons for this. There may be certain events that have hindered production, for example unexpected transport difficulties in winter. The armaments could have been redirected by a Führer order, for example. Production and, above all, the start of production of other weapons (like G.41 and G.43) could have resulted in capacities being lost. The bombing raids on Steyr in February 1944 and also on Gustloff-Werke Werk II Buchenwald in August 1944 can be seen. The year 1944 is generally very complicated because several of the reasons mentioned apply.

 

[Stephan98k]

To make it easier to understand, here is the Fertigungs-Vorschau document and the relevant part with K98ks is shown enlarged.

As I already mentioned, these white marked rifles are not SS K98ks, this assumption is a mistake and the Steyr SS contract is generally not shown in these Fertigungsvorschau docs.
The 22,260 white marked K98k are the 3% share of the Kriegsmarine from May 1944 to October 1944. Not SS, these are Kriegsmarine K98ks

Please look at the month of May 1944 and to the left of it is listed the following:
Heer
Luft
Marine
+ SS
Gesamt (Total)

As can be seen from this document, 148,000 K98k were expected to be available for distribution to the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine in May 1944.
Heer should get 134,680 K98ks (91%)
Luftwaffe 8,880 K98ks (6%)
Kriegsmarine 4,440 K98ks (3%)

The 148,000 K98k is just the expected total amount that should be divided between Heer, Luftwaffe and Marine and that is why it is called "148.000+".

These K98k for the SS mentioned in the notes are not regular distributions. These K98k are a payment to the SS for the hours worked by the Concentration Camp inmates in the K98k assembly line - at Gustloff-Werke Werk II Buchenwald.

The SS never received the K98k directly from the K98k manufacturers. Only special agreements with the SS, for work performed by Concentration Camp inmates in the K98k assembly line, were paid in kind, with K98k.

In the Bemerkungen (notes) is written: "+) Nach Abzug von 12.000 K98k für SS als Abgeltung der Häftlingsarbeit" the translation is: "+) After deduction of 12,000 K98k for SS as compensation for prisoner labor".

The expected total amount in May 1944 was 160,000 K98ks, the SS should get 12,000 and the remaining 148,000 K98ks was for the other branches. The SS should get 12,000 K98k in May, June, July and August, later the numbers got changed.

The explanation of how this worked can be found in the Volume II book, in the SS Chapter on page 732/733 (Please look at No.2 in the document) Here is the excerpt from the book:

Some years ago we was talking a lot about that document on page 732 in the SS chapter and maybe you still know my opinion about it. Please look again at these things and the text at page 732.

The 17,000 K98k's are not a payment for the labor supplied to Steyr, they have nothing to do with it at all. The document shown is from June 1943; the first negotiations on this issue with the 3 or 5% deal took place in September 1942. The 17,000 (the exact number is 16,862) K98k are without doubt a payment for the concentration camp Buchenwald K98k assembly.

My comment above is older, but still fits very well. The document also fits in the SS Chapter, but the text would have to be changed. The document actually belongs in the Gustloff-Werke Chapter.