A 1937 S/42 K98k Serial # 7686f with a mysterious legacy .....

[Badger]

Hello folks ……….

Here's a bit of fun (I hope!) for the forum …

It's puzzle time …

1937 S/42 K98k Serial # 7686f
(Mfg by Mauser Werke AG, Oberndorf a/N)

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1937 S/42 K98k Serial # 7686f (click here for 326 pic photo montage)http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/germanservicerifles/1937s42serial7686f

Review the pics and then let's have a discussion as to what happened to this rifle.

To save time, I'm going to put a stake in the ground and propose my own hypothesis.

This MO rifle is "all matching" from front to back, right down to the screw heads where appropriate. Pack a lunch (maybe dinner too) and go over the 326 pics in sequence and you'll see what I mean.

Now, when you get to the bolt, notice two things. First, the bolt body is correctly matched to the original rifle serial number. It hasn't been scrubbed or over struck and the 7686f is the original serial number for the rifle. Turn the bolt body over and look at the MO markings on the under flat and you'll see, besides "63"'s and a "W", the asterisk (*) type mark I've seen discussed on other forums in detail. From those various discussions, I've always assumed that it meant some kind of official repair to factory rejects etc. I've been discussing this piece with an expert member here and he said "it just means out of specification or slight flaw, and then sent back for correction."

Ok so far?

Now, start looking at each individual component belonging to the bolt serial numbered 7686f, including the safety, cocking piece, firing pin, extractor and bolt sleeve. What do you see?

You have to look VERY closely on some of the components, for example the extractor, but on other parts such the the cocking piece, it's very obvious. What I saw from the extreme close-up pics was an old serial number 3577 over stamped with 7686 on ALL of the components mentioned. In other words, someone took a set of matching pre-serial numbered 3577 parts including the safety, cocking piece, firing pin, extractor and bolt sleeve, and then proceeded to over strike them with the rifle's (and bolt body) serial number 7686. Note: ALL the parts are clearly marked as "63" (or factory stamp) Oberndorf. None are another maker's proofed parts.

Finally, have a close look at the bolt body "under flat" at the asterisk (*) and ask yourself, what's it doing there and other than the regular MO "63" proof marks, what is the "W". Perhaps it's just an inspector's mark as I also found the same "W" (font look and feel) on my "all matching" 1938 MO.

"W" stamped into barrel of 1938 Code 42 K98k Serial # 5896shttp://imageevent.com/badgerdog/germanservicerifles/1938code42k98kserial5896s

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So, the big question is……..

Who would do this, why and when?

At first I thought it was a forgery, but then I wondered why the heck would anyone be dumb enough to be so obvious as to fake all the parts (all of which had an identical different serial number from another rifle and thereby ruining them), by over striking instead of grinding them off and then stamping them, which most fakers try to do.

The other thing that struck me odd was the fact that the number font on all the pieces is definitely contemporary to the times and appears to be the same die set used on other parts. Some of the really extreme closeups demonstrate how basically the font was the same, as well as how the aging of the metal appeared uniform with the passage of time. It was difficult to be flipping back and forth between different enlarged pics, so I had a brainstorm of creating a composite (real CSI type stuff … got the idea from Hambone's "blood" helmet investigation) of all the various enlarged pics, just isolating the serial number part of each pic. I set it up it up to show correct (not over struck) serial numbered parts (ie: bolt flat, upper band, floor plate) against over struck parts (ie: firing pinc, safety and cocking piece).

Here's what I got …


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What do I conclude? Well, not a heck of a lot as I'm just an amateur sleuth loose with a digital camera creating photo montages and extreme close-ups, but if I were a betting man and could prove it definitively, which I don't think any of us could, my bet is that this rifle "failed" an inspection step at Oberndorf, so it was recycled through production to be fixed, all the bolt parts replaced by inspector "W" (hence the * stamp), then released to issue.

How's that for a leap !!!!

Id love to hear everyone's feedback, all in good fun ….

Thanks for reading this long winded post….

Again, I've removed picture copy restrictions, so go ahead and enlarge them, then right click pics to save for any research purposes.

I've also left "descriptions" open for any of you to make comments.

Regards,
Doug

 

[bruce98k]

S/42

Those bolt numbers do not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling. The bolt shroud is the key here as
there seems to be some discoloration due to metal heating, as well as an obvious overstamp.
The edge of the bolt flat exhibits some characteristics of welding flash on the upper bout. Safety is
overstamped as well along with cocking piece. If I were considering the bolt as correct I would have to
give it thumbs down. Again, just from my observations and from collecting MO it doesnt look right or
period done. Thats my best shot here and as straight as I can call it.

 

[Badger]

Those bolt numbers do not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling. The bolt shroud is the key here as
there seems to be some discoloration due to metal heating, as well as an obvious overstamp.
The edge of the bolt flat exhibits some characteristics of welding flash on the upper bout.

Thanks Bruce ...

I absolutely agree that all of the MO proofed marked parts you mention including the safety, cocking piece, firing pin, extractor and bolt sleeve, with the old serial number 3577 were over stamped with 7686. It's pretty clear to me that someone took a set of matching pre-serial numbered 3577 parts and decided to do that, re-fitting them onto the bolt itself.

Just so I'm clear on the terminology and what you're suggesting.

Your conclusion is that the bolt face here has been overstamped as well, and that the font used on it here isn't the correct one for MO for that period?


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Thanks ..

Regards,
Doug

 

[Loewe]

You can tell the font/suffix on the bolt flat is redone, but sure looks better than typical.

As this forum was created for learning and "serious" research/collecting, and Badger's goal is the truth about his rifle, we should have full disclosure- Bruce is certainly more knowledgeable and the go-to guy on MO, and not to suggest anyone is right or wrong (everyone can be wrong in an assessment, certainly a common enough occurrence for me..) but here is what I wrote Badger when he asked my opinion.



Re: 1937 S/42 with * Factory Rework (Rejected?) Bolt?

I completely agree, the bolt is very odd? Not sure I would call it fraudulent though as it does (as you say look period) look period done and the fonts are not the typical of the humper used/seen today- I doubt many could replicate this job, and it sure wouldn’t be worth the effort.

Wish I could help on when or why this was done, possibly some sort of factory re-utilization. I doubt part of any rework, not typical of reworks to be re-serialed like this, and the rifle shows no sign of reworking or other type of acceptance for work done after it left MO?

The asterisk is typical, just means out of specification or slight flaw, and then sent back for correction. Obviously it subsequently passed and was used. Very common at all the makers, although it is not a "common" marking.

Your guess is as good as you will find imo, - I do not think it fraudulent, but that is a possibility. I think most likely it was just a re-utilized part as you speculate. (no way to be 100% sure though.. I just do not think many have the skill to replicate this work today- not to mention finding such a close bolt to do it with! The bolt acceptance is “close” to what would be expected- similar to a S42/1937 “a” block I once owned..)

Great job on the pics!
​

 

[mrfarb]

This is one of those rifles that falls into the gray area. There is no way you can tell from photos exactly what you are seeing, as lighting and such can play tricks. The truth of the matter is the bolt is not the bolt that this rifle left the factory with. Even though it's well done, it's not original MO type work. The work is well done, and not typical of fakers, but you can't rule that aspect out, as I've seen a few renumber jobs over the years that would fool almost everyone- what you generally look for is grinding or welding- this one is not ground but milled off. Question though- why mill that serial off but just overstamp the rest? Why not just overstamp all?

If I had to make a call, I'd say it's suspect, thats all. If I see a 98k with a bolt like this that is renumbered and it doesn't have rework proofs on it, it falls into the gray area for me. I don't buy a gray area gun unless something else about it really stands out.

 

[Badger]

As this forum was created for learning and "serious" research/collecting, and Badger's goal is the truth about his rifle, we should have full disclosure-

Hi Simson ..

Thanks again for the feedback and re-printing our PM conversation, as I think it adds to the discussion.

For everyone's clarity, I know there's often a sensitivity and in some cases, a reluctance at all to comment on someone's rifle, as it can lead to dissension in forums. Other than my own on-line Internet libraries, I've never posted my K98k collection of rifles in a major way on other forums for one simple reason. Besides being a private person by nature, I find the Internet is full of far too many cut-n-paste pseudo-experts who distort an otherwise interesting thread with comments that aren't correct, or even focused on the original question. The reason I've chosen to start posting here more actively is it's a smaller venue, more intimate, plus the quality of the expertise is outstanding and seems to be highly objective.

What I really like here is the fact that I have access to true experts who leave their egos at the door and genuinely admit they could be wrong, by saying often they're passing their opinion on something, as opposed to beating everyone to death with how smart they are and preaching everything as gospel. For me that's refreshing and makes the environment less intimidating to ask questions, particularly for an amateur like me where it's a purely a hobby collecting these old girls and not my life's calling.

I have no personal emotional needs agenda with this rifle, other than pursuing my intellectual curiosity about it's history. I got it from a long time collector I know and its provenance is traceable back to at least the late 1970's in its current state. It was passed to me with full recognition that the bolt had all MO proofed parts that had been over-stamped and renumbered to match the original rifle's serial number, so I have no expectation that this is anything other than that.

If it didn't have that darn asterisk "*" marking indicating that at least the bolt body had issues and was sent back for correction, I doubt I'd have even started this thread.

Anyway, again, I appreciate all of the feedback and the sharing of everyone's valuable time here.

Regards,
Doug

 

[Badger]

You can tell the font/suffix on the bolt flat is redone, but sure looks better than typical.

This is one of those rifles that falls into the gray area. There is no way you can tell from photos exactly what you are seeing, as lighting and such can play tricks. The truth of the matter is the bolt is not the bolt that this rifle left the factory with. Even though it's well done, it's not original MO type work. The work is well done, and not typical of fakers, but you can't rule that aspect out, as I've seen a few renumber jobs over the years that would fool almost everyone- what you generally look for is grinding or welding- this one is not ground but milled off. Question though- why mill that serial off but just overstamp the rest? Why not just overstamp all?

If I had to make a call, I'd say it's suspect, thats all. If I see a 98k with a bolt like this that is renumbered and it doesn't have rework proofs on it, it falls into the gray area for me. I don't buy a gray area gun unless something else about it really stands out.

Hi Guys ….

I agree Mike, I think the flash lighting is causing problems. I wish we were on the same side of the border, or I'd ship this bolt to you guys for a real good look. Unfortunately, Canada Customs would probably arrest me on its return and claim I was a terrorist trying to import guns. It's the price I pay for living in a "nanny" state with no constitutional protections on my rights to private property or firearms.

Anyway, here's some pics with less of a flash impact, although it was still used.

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As you can see, the "f" font suffix looks completely different than the one shown in the first post (see below) where the flash was probably an over-flash and changed the look and feel of the subject being viewing. The other problem is that the bolt face and body has a lot of "gunk" (rust?) all over it including on the flat bolt face, which I probably should take a cleaner and toothbrush to.

Flash substantially alters true appearance.


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For comparisons …

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…..... "f" on barrel …………………………............…...... "f" on receiver ……



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….... "f" on buttplate …………………......................….. "f" on bolt flat (no flash) ……


I think at this point we have a collective consensus that we need to focus on the bolt. You've heard the expression "follow the money", well, I'd say "follow the bolt" and the rest falls into place. If the bolt has been over-stamped too, or otherwise ground down, then it's obvious that someone at some time took all MO parts with serial number 3577 and over-stamped them with 7686. They also took an MO bolt body and altered the bolt face to be 7686f, creating a matched set.

Conversely, if they bolt face serial number 7686f is not ground off and original, then that's a different story, so let me get you better photographic (less fuzzy macro pics) and I'll post them here.

At that point, regardless of which is true, we still have to deal with that darn asterisk "*" marking indicating that at least the bolt body had issues and was sent back for correction, So, is there any relationship between that * marking, the "W" inspector's mark and my entire hypothesis ?

I do have a photographic lightbox for small item photography. I'm currently traveling on business, but when I get home for the weekend, I'll put the bolt body into the lightbox and take a series of "macro" close-up pics with no flash. I'll clean the bolt thoroughly first and I'll try to focus on the surface angles for everyone to compare. Is there any specific focal point or view anyone would definitely like to see?

Thanks …

Regards,
Doug

 

[Badger]

By the way, while researching for this thread, I dragged out two other MO rifles that I know the bolts are correct (you guys already vetted them), for the purpose of trying to find any consistencies and similarities in fonts over time.

Have a look at these two bolts ….

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.......... 1936 MO Bolt ................................................ 1938 MO Bolt ...........

I guess the moral is that one can drive themselves crazy trying to determine what was standard and not standard in font die sets used over the years, as well as perhaps even within a single year.

I'd love to have access to just a "font library" showing nothing but fonts from bolt flats from the same manufacturer within a single year, then for each year as they changed. I guess as with any mechanical thing, a die set would wear out over time and with the more "craftsman" like manufacturing techniques and tolerances of the time (no computer CNC stuff), that there were considerable variances in these stamps?

Regards,
Doug

 

[Loewe]

Appreciate the thoughts, and sentiment regarding the purpose of the forum- I agree, and some (including myself at times) take things a little too serious in forum debates. none of this is really that important.

Regarding the "f" suffix on the bolt, I only have one "f" block with a matching bolt on file, and it is owned by a 1st class turd for brains, so I can't use it- crappy pics anyway. I would say the font is slightly different than yours but very similar (one problem is so few take relevant pictures or very good ones.)
Stray letter characters on the bottom bolt flat is typical, my "a" block has a "y" but very small, others on file also have random (apparently random) alpha characters so who can say as to meaning, purpose or relevance?

As I said in our correspondence, no harm in pursuing this topic publicly but I doubt you will find a good answer from any forum or collector as we do not have enough data (more rifles in the 37 "f" block might help) and not enough is known about how the rifles were really made.

Backboner's most important contribution- and only lingering value- is its outline and detailed description of how the rifles were made. It is inadequate for a full understanding but perhaps this can be addressed with Jon Speed's help in the other volumes B&M are working on?

Most of what I know about production comes from P08 collectors, and Storz book - and Backboner- but there is more questions than answers.

 

[Badger]

Hi folks …

Ok, as promised, I got out the bolt by itself and tried to do the best I could with a mild cleaner and toothbrush, to get all of the "gunk" and rust off the bolt face. Here's the results below.

After Cleaning
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As you can see, it impoved somewhat, but obviously this old girl has been through a lot and she's stained with wear.

In any event, here's the good news. I think I've solved the mystery ….

Here's the marking that started me researching this in the first place.


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As I said earlier, what I saw then from the extreme close-up pics was an old serial number 3577 over stamped with 7686 on ALL of the bolt components. In other words, I thought that someone took a set of matching pre-serial numbered 3577 parts including the safety, cocking piece, firing pin, extractor and bolt sleeve, and then proceeded to over strike them with the rifle's serial number 7686, to match the existing bolt number 7686. I noted that ALL the parts are clearly marked as "63" (or factory stamp) Oberndorf. None are another maker's proofed parts.

After the clean up, I put my camera into "macro" mode for doing "bugs" and here's some pics of what I got.

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So, now what do you guys see that I now see?

Regards,
Doug

 

[Loewe]

Looks like a "7" under that last "6" and it looks scrubbed/re-struck... I assume you are of the opinion this bolt was once all matched 3577 and was force-matched?

Hi folks …

So, now what do you guys see that I now see?

Regards,
Doug

 

[mrfarb]

These pictures help. I notice that the serials on the bolt have rounded edges, typical of engraved numbers. However, it could just be dies made with an engraver.

 

[Badger]

Looks like a "7" under that last "6" and it looks scrubbed/re-struck... I assume you are of the opinion this bolt was once all matched 3577 and was force-matched?

These pictures help. I notice that the serials on the bolt have rounded edges, typical of engraved numbers. However, it could just be dies made with an engraver.

Hi guys ...

Sorry for the delay in answering, but I was out of the country on business.

Anyway, I bet you missed me and all my drivel filled posts ...

I guess what I'm saying is at this point, I have no freakin idea ...

I think my original hypothesis relating to the asterisk * rework process still has some merit, but it's weakened a lot and seems odd to me now. If you believe that "7" (Simson saw it too) in the recent pics is actually the last digit of a bolt body that was originally numbered "3577" also (can't make out the rest of the digits to validate that), then what we have is an entire matched bolt made up of ALL MO parts, that was originally serial numbered "3577" and everything was completely over struck to be "7686", which matches the rest of the rifle.

In our collecting world, especially today, fraudulent intent jumps immediately to mind and rightly so. However, in this case, with a rifle that's been like this at least going back to the 1970's in provenance and was supposedly a vet bringback, someone went to a lot of work using a font relatively contemporary to the times, just to match everything to the rifle. They did so without even attempting to hide their work?

So, what would be the point, particularly with dollar values of these pieces being as low as they were back in the 60's and 70's?

The other item to note is the state of the bolt and the new serial numbers. The rust and gunk was right down in the impressions and the metal aging all round the parts was not new and fresh.

My conclusion now would be that this was not an attempt to fake and deceive a buyer for monetary gain. Too much work that is obvious and for little financial return on it, plus I don't think we can ignore that nagging asterisk * thing staring at us. I do know for sure that this rifle had its bolt replaced and the new one force matched by someone somewhere at sometime, but I'm not sure by whom, where it was done, or why it was done?

Would you all agree that there's it much else we can "squeeze" out of this thread and the limited information we have to work with today?

I do believe as well that this thread makes for a good example for new collectors to study the pics and read the posts carefully, just to get an idea how challenging it is for even experts and novices alike to analyze these kinds of things.

Thanks for everyone's time and patience ..

Regards,
Doug