1916 dwm

Here's another good one, as I recall from GB. It's matching except the floorplate & follower, so it was a good candidate for my other extended mag. The unit marking J.R.605.5.K.225 (Infantry Regiment 605, 5th Company, weapon # 225) has been a puzzle. Jeff Noll's "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" lists the 605 Regiment as part of the 252nd Division. "Histories of Two Hundred & Fifty-One Divisions of the German Army" doesn't list the 252nd Division. Searching the internet I did stumble across a thread started by Cyrus a few years back on a bayo marked to the 605 Regiment and the thread also mentioned another.

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-248688.html

Here's the remaining pics

feldmütze said:

Here's the remaining pics

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Another nice one! That's a really nice beech stock on that one. That's awesome it's unit marked on a 1916 dated rifle.

Nice looking DWM! I remember that bayonet from eBay, wish I had saved the pictures. What struck me as weird was that JR605 used such strange (to me) unit markings, and also 605 is such a high number for a regiment. The mark looked more Weimar than Imperial. Come to find out that is how Imperial uniforms and gear were marked, so it kind of makes since that an Infanterie Regiment would use that marking system later in the war, after the earlier style had been abandoned. And if I remember correctly, some scharfschutzengewehr have turned up unit marked like this as well?

I am glad you did pictures of it, you have had it awhile, and the pics I have rather suck... here is the auction link, AA again:

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=5805803

Also, the unit is as I recall a coastal defense unit, just south of Denmark at the time, I had a Sg98/05 with a close unit marking a few years before you bought this rifle, but traded it to MauserBill back in 2003 or so (as I recall, I think it was the same one anyway, the AGM pics I bought it from are the best ones I still have... Bill later sold it for less than I bought it for). I will try and post some pictures, but they suck too as back then I didn't have a good camera... unit marking was: Move-Werke Walter & Co. - J.R.605.5K.37

I was really intrigued by this unit's mystery and consulted a good friend who's working on German mobilization during WWI. He checked his sources and came back with this:

"Infanterie Division 121 took replacements from Landsturm Battalions 614 and 605 in the vincinity of Mars-Le-Tour following a relief which took place 21 September 1917."

Think that's a possibility?

See Anthony Carters book on the Sg98/05 (vol.I), page 88, he discusses another bayonet like this and the unit. I saw something else on this topic too, probably in the AEF Summery of Information reports, not sure, but somewhere in another book I have.

Did your friend suggest a source for his information? 251 perhaps? I could look it up but my copy is an original book, very fragile, - it was also a valuable book until someone copied it on line and made reprints of it... though I could say that about half the rare books I own. In a decade or two all old and rare books will be downloadable as soon as their copyright expires.

BerlinerLuebecker said:

I was really intrigued by this unit's mystery and consulted a good friend who's working on German mobilization during WWI. He checked his sources and came back with this:

"Infanterie Division 121 took replacements from Landsturm Battalions 614 and 605 in the vincinity of Mars-Le-Tour following a relief which took place 21 September 1917."

Think that's a possibility?

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BL, J.R.605 is a regiment, not a battalion, but thanks for investigating. That's interesting on the coastal defense possibility. I would have thought most coastal defense would have been supported by the Kaiserliche Marine?

Loewe said:

See Anthony Carters book on the Sg98/05 (vol.I), page 88, he discusses another bayonet like this and the unit. I saw something else on this topic too, probably in the AEF Summery of Information reports, not sure, but somewhere in another book I have.

Did your friend suggest a source for his information? 251 perhaps? I could look it up but my copy is an original book, very fragile, - it was also a valuable book until someone copied it on line and made reprints of it... though I could say that about half the rare books I own. In a decade or two all old and rare books will be downloadable as soon as their copyright expires.

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Yep, it's from 251. But as Feldmütze noted, that's unfortunately less helpful than I had hoped.

By the way: http://books.google.com/books?id=Vf...QSjkIHwAw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Pretty decent pdf of the book. And I doubt the value much diminished - rare books are still rare! I work with copied versions all the time (so I can print, highlight, shove them in a bag, etc), but still will grab original prints whenever I can afford to.

Well, I do not know for sure off hand, Anthony Carter could have been wrong, as I recall he didn't reference a source for his information and he has been wrong before (as have we all). He passed away some years ago, but he was a good author who is generally highly regarded, some of his books are very expensive, we have sold a number of them as I upgraded my book holdings and even worn copies can be worth hundreds depending on the book.

I will see if I can scan that portion of the book, but I would encourage everyone to buy books, you can never have enough of them imo, - while rifles are wonderful to own, books are more valuable than rifles to a knowledgeable collector.

*** Here is a scan of the section, apparently not coastal but rather to guard against invasion through Denmark or Netherlands, seems like a stretch to me how an IR could defend against such extreme potentialities... I suppose in reserve if such a threat rose? It isn't like the Netherlands and Denmark share a border and even the British and French weren't so cavalier as to invade either friendly country to get around a flank (they weren’t above flagrant violations of other countries sovereignty of course, they did it a number of times, but not to peaceful and stable neighbors in this period). I doubt the Dutch or the Danes would allow an invasion without fighting, - the Dutch especially as they had some problems with the Entente after the war helping Germany work around Versailles on several issues and neither liked the British blockade and restrictions imposed on them by force.

feldmütze said:

BL, J.R.605 is a regiment, not a battalion, but thanks for investigating. That's interesting on the coastal defense possibility. I would have thought most coastal defense would have been supported by the Kaiserliche Marine?

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I agree, original is by far preferred by me as well, but I am primarily a book dealer-seller these days so I am rather bias in that regard...

The original is clear and sharp and easy to read, the copies available are difficult to read and in some places impossible. But the original is also fragile, especially the binding, so it is not as handy as a copy.

BerlinerLuebecker said:

Yep, it's from 251. But as Feldmütze noted, that's unfortunately less helpful than I had hoped.

By the way: http://books.google.com/books?id=Vf...QSjkIHwAw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Pretty decent pdf of the book. And I doubt the value much diminished - rare books are still rare! I work with copied versions all the time (so I can print, highlight, shove them in a bag, etc), but still will grab original prints whenever I can afford to.

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Paul, thanks for scanning that page. Carter, indeed well regarded, was very specific in the referenced info on the 605th, so as far as I'm concerned we now have the answer. So now we know the 605th regimental markings began at the earliest Dec 1916, which is late for any regimental markings to still appear.

feldmütze said:

Paul, thanks for scanning that page. Carter, indeed well regarded, was very specific in the referenced info on the 605th, so as far as I'm concerned we now have the answer. So now we know the 605th regimental markings began at the earliest Dec 1916, which is late for any regimental markings to still appear.

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I think its kind of cool that they are marked like Imperial uniforms/equipment and Weimar Weapons. Don't know why they abandoned the earlier marking convention but its interesting.

Wonder why so many (comparatively) marked weapons show up from JR605? maybe they surrendered en mass to an American unit?