Looking for information on three 'sniper' rifles. What am I looking at here?

Hi there,


I'll preface this by saying I'm not currently out to purchase a rifle, but I'm doing some research on Kar.98 rifles (Particularly ones fitted with optics) and reputable dealers in the U.K.

I'm seeking information about these rifles, their authenticity, what someone should pay for them, etc. So that I can learn to identify these features by myself.

The first is an objective mount fitted with a Dr. Walter Gerard scope:
https://www.byswordandmusket.co.uk/...mauser-model-k98-with-dr-walter-gerard-scope/
The second is an 'assembled' high turret:
https://www.byswordandmusket.co.uk/fac-rifles/german-rilfes/k98-with-turret-scope-f-970/

The third is another 'assembled' rifle, this time an SSR supposedly fitted with a 'GECO' scope, but I can't find reference to that type anywhere.
Posting pictures of this one because the website it's listed on doesn't have a separate page for it from all their other rifles.






Looking forward to the responses.

What your looking at is Reproduction Post War put together Rifles .

Dave Roberts said:

What your looking at is Reproduction Post War put together Rifles .

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Do you think they're decent quality reproductions from what you can see? For shootablity moreso than colectability (which I expect is negligible).
And as far as the price point goes?

I am familiar with, albeit not close to, both vendors.

The second of the two has a good reputation and I have bought from them in the past. If you look back through past sales you’ll see that they have a healthy throughput of items and have sold some pretty expensive and rare items, primarily Enfields and later British manufacturers.

The description of that final rifle you list seems accurate to me. If one wants a replica K98 sniper then it’s an option, but as others have said if you want original then it certainly is not.

The other vendor has a certain ‘style’ - of presentation, language etc - that you will either appreciate or not. You’ll want to read the descriptions carefully because they tend to go big on the history and positives at the beginning and list out the less positives at the end.

Equally, both vendors are very present and well known on the small UK service rifle collecting scene.

Both vendors are actually gunsmiths that can work on these rifles, which is a positive as of course many these days are really only retailers.

If it’s of any use, I have only seen two possibly genuine K98 snipers for sale in the UK in the last couple of years and neither was wholly issue free.

In my experience one is much more likely to find nice, original German rifles from the First World War in the UK than from the Second World War. Presumably down to the rules governing bring backs and trophies being much stricter in the latter than the former. And, of course, if Enfields are your thing then absolutely mint examples of every variable type pop up quite frequently.

AG

Amateur_Gardener said:

I am familiar with, albeit not close to, both vendors.

The second of the two has a good reputation and I have bought from them in the past. If you look back through past sales you’ll see that they have a healthy throughput of items and have sold some pretty expensive and rare items, primarily Enfields and later British manufacturers.

The description of that final rifle you list seems accurate to me. If one wants a replica K98 sniper then it’s an option, but as others have said if you want original then it certainly is not.

The other vendor has a certain ‘style’ - of presentation, language etc - that you will either appreciate or not. You’ll want to read the descriptions carefully because they tend to go big on the history and positives at the beginning and list out the less positives at the end.

Equally, both vendors are very present and well known on the small UK service rifle collecting scene.

Both vendors are actually gunsmiths that can work on these rifles, which is a positive as of course many these days are really only retailers.

If it’s of any use, I have only seen two possibly genuine K98 snipers for sale in the UK in the last couple of years and neither was wholly issue free.

In my experience one is much more likely to find nice, original German rifles from the First World War in the UK than from the Second World War. Presumably down to the rules governing bring backs and trophies being much stricter in the latter than the former. And, of course, if Enfields are your thing then absolutely mint examples of every variable type pop up quite frequently.

AG

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Thanks AG,

Do you know if there are any other reputable service rifle dealers in the UK?
So far I've managed to identify a few that have decent offerings but I have no information as to their reputations.
Namely: Highwood Classic Arms, CG Firearms, Henry Krank, Pukka Bundhooks, and EFD Rifles.

Kind Regards,
Jacques

Simon at Highwood is a lovely fellow but if you want something from him (either off his website or for him to look out for something for you) then you’ll need to keep on at him because he is not always good at returning calls, texts and emails. That’s not a criticism as I suspect he’s just very busy, but it is my experience. But he does seem to have some nice stuff and some more Russian capture / composite stuff. Does a lot of commission sales. The best stuff goes before it gets on the website I imagine.

I’ve done plenty of business with CG, who in my experience are very good. Particularly for actually working on rifles and if you need anything imported from the US then that is the place to go as they have been doing it for years and have an operation over there as well. If I were to have a composed sniper built, this is where I would go. However, they are more into shooters than collecting pieces, so be conscious of that.

Henry Krank do some military surplus stuff. Unless you know exactly what you’re looking at and can inspect it in person, it wouldn’t be my first stop.

Donaldson’s Guns often have Mausers but although I’m sure they’re lovely people and there is no poor intent, I’m not sure they have the knowledge to discern original from composed as there have been some howlers on their website.

G-Ten can have some good stuff. The owner is one of the UK’s top heritage rifle shooters. Always beats me by miles at Bisley.

Check out Ellis Arms. Paul there is super knowledgeable and in my experience as straight as they come. If I wanted an original K98 sniper in the UK, that’s where I would go (to try to find one, not that one would be there) unless I were buying from this Forum and asking CG to import it for me.

Croxton Country Stores - very nice people. Tend to mostly have a good range of Russian,
Balkan etc capture stuff including some unusual things, but also some real treasures. Know what you’re looking at because their main business is much bigger, but I have had an absolute corker from them and if anything went wrong they would bend over backwards to help you out. They do quite a lot of importing from Europe I think.

EFD Rifles - I have no experience of them but I would be surprised if they were able to remain a member of the HBSA and LERA if they weren’t accurate and honest in what they do. Seems mostly Enfields.

Pukka Bundhooks I don’t know at all.

South Hants Classics is another option - often at trade fairs but don’t usually put stuff on the website.

Bolt Open Classics - again a wide array of things but I haven’t found much original in the ways of Mausers there before (but their other stuff may well be very good).

Thames Valley Guns is another you could look at but I have never done business with them.

Auction wise, Holts and Wilson55 can be good but all the usual risks and issues of buying at auction apply and if you can’t inspect in person then it’s high risk especially given the complexities of the UK’s licensing regime. I would avoid other firearm auctioneers in the UK unless you an RFD yourself.

There are others of course.

AG

Amateur_Gardener said:

Simon at Highwood is a lovely fellow but if you want something from him (either off his website or for him to look out for something for you) then you’ll need to keep on at him because he is not always good at returning calls, texts and emails. That’s not a criticism as I suspect he’s just very busy, but it is my experience. But he does seem to have some nice stuff and some more Russian capture / composite stuff. Does a lot of commission sales. The best stuff goes before it gets on the website I imagine.

I’ve done plenty of business with CG, who in my experience are very good. Particularly for actually working on rifles and if you need anything imported from the US then that is the place to go as they have been doing it for years and have an operation over there as well. If I were to have a composed sniper built, this is where I would go. However, they are more into shooters than collecting pieces, so be conscious of that.

Henry Krank do some military surplus stuff. Unless you know exactly what you’re looking at and can inspect it in person, it wouldn’t be my first stop.

Donaldson’s Guns often have Mausers but although I’m sure they’re lovely people and there is no poor intent, I’m not sure they have the knowledge to discern original from composed as there have been some howlers on their website.

G-Ten can have some good stuff. The owner is one of the UK’s top heritage rifle shooters. Always beats me by miles at Bisley.

Check out Ellis Arms. Paul there is super knowledgeable and in my experience as straight as they come. If I wanted an original K98 sniper in the UK, that’s where I would go (to try to find one, not that one would be there) unless I were buying from this Forum and asking CG to import it for me.

Croxton Country Stores - very nice people. Tend to mostly have a good range of Russian,
Balkan etc capture stuff including some unusual things, but also some real treasures. Know what you’re looking at because their main business is much bigger, but I have had an absolute corker from them and if anything went wrong they would bend over backwards to help you out. They do quite a lot of importing from Europe I think.

EFD Rifles - I have no experience of them but I would be surprised if they were able to remain a member of the HBSA and LERA if they weren’t accurate and honest in what they do. Seems mostly Enfields.

Pukka Bundhooks I don’t know at all.

South Hants Classics is another option - often at trade fairs but don’t usually put stuff on the website.

Bolt Open Classics - again a wide array of things but I haven’t found much original in the ways of Mausers there before (but their other stuff may well be very good).

Thames Valley Guns is another you could look at but I have never done business with them.

Auction wise, Holts and Wilson55 can be good but all the usual risks and issues of buying at auction apply and if you can’t inspect in person then it’s high risk especially given the complexities of the UK’s licensing regime. I would avoid other firearm auctioneers in the UK unless you an RFD yourself.

There are others of course.

AG

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I've been doing some window shopping on those sites, and I've found something that I'd like to pick your brain on if you don't mind?

By all means, drop me a PM if helpful.

AG

Amateur_Gardener said:

Simon at Highwood is a lovely fellow but if you want something from him (either off his website or for him to look out for something for you) then you’ll need to keep on at him because he is not always good at returning calls, texts and emails. That’s not a criticism as I suspect he’s just very busy, but it is my experience. But he does seem to have some nice stuff and some more Russian capture / composite stuff. Does a lot of commission sales. The best stuff goes before it gets on the website I imagine.

I’ve done plenty of business with CG, who in my experience are very good. Particularly for actually working on rifles and if you need anything imported from the US then that is the place to go as they have been doing it for years and have an operation over there as well. If I were to have a composed sniper built, this is where I would go. However, they are more into shooters than collecting pieces, so be conscious of that.

Henry Krank do some military surplus stuff. Unless you know exactly what you’re looking at and can inspect it in person, it wouldn’t be my first stop.

Donaldson’s Guns often have Mausers but although I’m sure they’re lovely people and there is no poor intent, I’m not sure they have the knowledge to discern original from composed as there have been some howlers on their website.

G-Ten can have some good stuff. The owner is one of the UK’s top heritage rifle shooters. Always beats me by miles at Bisley.

Check out Ellis Arms. Paul there is super knowledgeable and in my experience as straight as they come. If I wanted an original K98 sniper in the UK, that’s where I would go (to try to find one, not that one would be there) unless I were buying from this Forum and asking CG to import it for me.

Croxton Country Stores - very nice people. Tend to mostly have a good range of Russian,
Balkan etc capture stuff including some unusual things, but also some real treasures. Know what you’re looking at because their main business is much bigger, but I have had an absolute corker from them and if anything went wrong they would bend over backwards to help you out. They do quite a lot of importing from Europe I think.

EFD Rifles - I have no experience of them but I would be surprised if they were able to remain a member of the HBSA and LERA if they weren’t accurate and honest in what they do. Seems mostly Enfields.

Pukka Bundhooks I don’t know at all.

South Hants Classics is another option - often at trade fairs but don’t usually put stuff on the website.

Bolt Open Classics - again a wide array of things but I haven’t found much original in the ways of Mausers there before (but their other stuff may well be very good).

Thames Valley Guns is another you could look at but I have never done business with them.

Auction wise, Holts and Wilson55 can be good but all the usual risks and issues of buying at auction apply and if you can’t inspect in person then it’s high risk especially given the complexities of the UK’s licensing regime. I would avoid other firearm auctioneers in the UK unless you an RFD yourself.

There are others of course.

AG

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Both Highwood and Devizes have both also had very expensive faked scoped K98k's for sale on their websites in recent years, both being claimed as genuine. The one Highwood were advertising was discussed on here at length. That's not to say both are dodgy, but just not K98k experts. Both were being sold on commission basis as well, they were not their own stock. The reason Simon at Highwood is hard to get hold of is because he's a part time RFD, and has a day job 5 days a week. Great Lee-Enfield expert, and know plenty of people that have had good dealings with him.
Richard at Devizes is a nice bloke and another great Lee-Enfield person, and a good 'smith, and I have actually bought a rifle from him in the past. Not a K98k 'geek' though.
Chris at CG is great, I know him very well, but if I wanted someone to build a repro K98k sniper, I'd probably go to Paul at Thames Valley Guns.....in fact that's what I did do
By Sword and Musket were selling a repro K98k a year or 2 ago, that Paul had built up. Looked a nice rifle.
EFD rifles I wouldn't touch with a barge pole I'm afraid, and I know of of several people that have the same opinion. They were selling a Lee-Enfield No.4T sniper rifle a few years with a totally spurious back story that claimed it could have been used by a Commando unit at D-Day that was serving several thousand miles away in June 1944. They were advertising a comically faked SS ZF41 K98k a short while ago, that was also talked about on here in less than glowing terms.

That Erma RC rifle that Richard is selling at Devizes for £1450 if it shoots well could be a good buy for an optic equipped shooter K98k. Richard usually personally test shoots most of his stock as well. I'd have not hesitation in buying from Richard a Devizes, and its being advertised as what it is a scoped RC rifle. If the scope has good optics it could be a good buy for a shooter, which of course we have to do here in the UK.

GeeRam said:

Both Highwood and Devizes have both also had very expensive faked scoped K98k's for sale on their websites in recent years, both being claimed as genuine. The one Highwood were advertising was discussed on here at length. That's not to say both are dodgy, but just not K98k experts. Both were being sold on commission basis as well, they were not their own stock. The reason Simon at Highwood is hard to get hold of is because he's a part time RFD, and has a day job 5 days a week. Great Lee-Enfield expert, and know plenty of people that have had good dealings with him.
Richard at Devizes is a nice bloke and another great Lee-Enfield person, and a good 'smith, and I have actually bought a rifle from him in the past. Not a K98k 'geek' though.
Chris at CG is great, I know him very well, but if I wanted someone to build a repro K98k sniper, I'd probably go to Paul at Thames Valley Guns.....in fact that's what I did do
By Sword and Musket were selling a repro K98k a year or 2 ago, that Paul had built up. Looked a nice rifle.
EFD rifles I wouldn't touch with a barge pole I'm afraid, and I know of of several people that have the same opinion. They were selling a Lee-Enfield No.4T sniper rifle a few years with a totally spurious back story that claimed it could have been used by a Commando unit at D-Day that was serving several thousand miles away in June 1944. They were advertising a comically faked SS ZF41 K98k a short while ago, that was also talked about on here in less than glowing terms.

That Erma RC rifle that Richard is selling at Devizes for £1450 if it shoots well could be a good buy for an optic equipped shooter K98k. Richard usually personally test shoots most of his stock as well. I'd have not hesitation in buying from Richard a Devizes, and its being advertised as what it is a scoped RC rifle. If the scope has good optics it could be a good buy for a shooter, which of course we have to do here in the UK.

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I have been looking at Paul's work, he certainly seems to be a very competent gunsmith.
Would you mind telling me about the work he did for you?

Jacques Mouton said:

I have been looking at Paul's work, he certainly seems to be a very competent gunsmith.
Would you mind telling me about the work he did for you?

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Yes, he's very good, especially with old stuff as he's an ex-British Army trained armourer, that worked on the L42 sniper rifles. He has a long wait list though. I had to wait about 9 months after contacting him to get my rifle into him, and then it was about a 5 month wait to get it back. Was very happy with the end result. I wonder how long he'll continue though as he must now be in his late 60's.
I had acquired a pre-war P.Kohler Zielsechs scope in superb condition about 3/4 years earlier, and had been for next few years looking for a decent miss-match bitza K98k with a good bore that would be suitable for scope conversion. My aging eyes were starting to struggle shooting with the German battle sights on my other K98k, and as only a bolt miss-match double Navy issue, I didn't want to scope that one. As luck would have it, a UK member on here, but also on UK Fullbore forum decided to sell his lovely condition RC K98k and I was able to buy that at a decent price (for 4 years ago). It shot very well so that went to Paul for SSR conversion. With scope prices what they are now, and RC prices now, plus conversion costs, etc. it's not a cheap undertaking these days, with average RC rifles now double what they were just 4 years ago here in the UK, so you'll be looking at 2.5k+ to have one done now....which is a lot more than what mine cost 4 years ago when all added up including rifle and scope costs. That's why that rifle at Devizes Gunsmith for £1450 would be a good buy at that prices as long as the optics are OK if you are in the market for a scoped K98k.

This was my rifle after Paul had finished building it.

GeeRam said:

Yes, he's very good, especially with old stuff as he's an ex-British Army trained armourer, that worked on the L42 sniper rifles. He has a long wait list though. I had to wait about 9 months after contacting him to get my rifle into him, and then it was about a 5 month wait to get it back. Was very happy with the end result. I wonder how long he'll continue though as he must now be in his late 60's.
I had acquired a pre-war P.Kohler Zielsechs scope in superb condition about 3/4 years earlier, and had been for next few years looking for a decent miss-match bitza K98k with a good bore that would be suitable for scope conversion. My aging eyes were starting to struggle shooting with the German battle sights on my other K98k, and as only a bolt miss-match double Navy issue, I didn't want to scope that one. As luck would have it, a UK member on here, but also on UK Fullbore forum decided to sell his lovely condition RC K98k and I was able to buy that at a decent price (for 4 years ago). It shot very well so that went to Paul for SSR conversion. With scope prices what they are now, and RC prices now, plus conversion costs, etc. it's not a cheap undertaking these days, with average RC rifles now double what they were just 4 years ago here in the UK, so you'll be looking at 2.5k+ to have one done now....which is a lot more than what mine cost 4 years ago when all added up including rifle and scope costs. That's why that rifle at Devizes Gunsmith for £1450 would be a good buy at that prices as long as the optics are OK if you are in the market for a scoped K98k.

This was my rifle after Paul had finished building it.

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On that note about optics, (Beautiful rifle by the way, I would love a Zielsechs but I get the impression they're much rarer than the Zielvier). The one up for sale on Devizes is described to have a GECO 4x scope, but I haven't been able to find any reference to that type being manufactured by GECO.