243 1939 #8087 LK5 marked.

Jdt · Dec 12, 2024

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/1078658004

The auction is concluded but was wanting everyone thoughts on this rifle, I noticed/had brought up to me several notes of interest.

1. The receiver serial number appears to have been scrubbed and renumbered, was this a thing from the depot system during WW2? The fonts on the receiver and barrel match in my eyes so I'm leaning towards the renumbering being real.

2. The double F block bolt makes me think it could be possible that e/655 marked parts could have been from a donor rifle or depot spares. What's your guys thoughts on the e/655 marked parts?

3. When did the CXM barrel code show up?

Any and all notes of interest about this example, please comment them, wether good or bad. This is a really interesting example imo, also my phone is on its last legs so anyone here feel free to download all the auction photos and post them in the comments so there is no worry about the photos disappearing once the GB link expires if this rifle is legit.

mrfarb · Dec 12, 2024

It is a depot rebuild of a damaged rifle, less common to see one like this. Imagine everything is from 1 rifle except the barrel and receiver. I have a similar one that was repaired with a new depot receiver and barre numbered to match the “parts kit.”

IMO the stock damage is not what caused
the original repair, looks like maybe combat damage or someone hit it with an ax (I go with ax). It’s a shame someone cleaned that stock so aggressively.

heavy_mech · Dec 12, 2024

mrfarb said:
It is a depot rebuild of a damaged rifle, less common to see one like this. Imagine everything is from 1 rifle except the barrel and receiver. I have a similar one that was repaired with a new depot receiver and barre numbered to match the “parts kit.”

IMO the stock damage is not what caused
the original repair, looks like maybe combat damage or someone hit it with an ax (I go with ax). It’s a shame someone cleaned that stock so aggressively.

Any clues as to which depot did the work?

As for the cleaning, it looks like they really wanted to remove whatever clear goop that was applied. I noticed the remnants of it in the sling slot.

mrfarb · Dec 12, 2024

The aggressive stock treatment seems to have removed any evidence of who reworked it.

heavy_mech · Dec 13, 2024

mrfarb said:
The aggressive stock treatment seems to have removed any evidence of who reworked it.

Yeah, unfortunately. I was wondering if the font, FP or any other clues might help.

Some things I can say. The 'parts kit' as Mike put it was a MO rifle from 1940. The barrel code cxm 35 and then not shown is probably 40. Geco used that code in 1940-41. There is no finished chamber marking like 7,9 or 7,91 on the shank. The rear sight base is e/26 x 2, and not e/655 x 2 if it came from the original MO gun. I wonder if it came with the receiver (e/26 x 3)? The bulk of the rear sight parts are from the original gun. The fsb is e/280 and not the e/655 if it also came from the original gun.

Not sure if any of this might indicate who did the rebuild, but searching the clues is fun.

Stephan98k · Dec 13, 2024

heavy_mech said:
Not sure if any of this might indicate who did the rebuild, but searching the clues is fun.

I agree with you, searching the clues is fun and in addition it's very important. I hope it's okay if I upload the pics, it would be a shame if the link in the future doesn't work anymore.

Stephan98k · Dec 13, 2024

This rifle is in my opinion a Luftwaffe Depot Rebuild of mainly two different Luftwaffe K98ks.

- Mauser Berlin "243 1939" coded receiver "i" Block
- Mauser Oberndorf "42 1940" Sn. 8087ff

- The LK5 stamp can be seen on the stock and the widespread assumption is, the LK5 stamp is associated with the Luftwaffe.
- Number "23" can be seen on the stock, some rifles with LK5 stamp have this number.
- The period in which the Mauser Berlin "243 1939" was produced, the Luftwaffe was increasingly getting rifles and round the "i" block nearly all of the MB K98k's I know are Luftwaffe.
- The period in which the Mauser "42 1940" Sn. 8087ff was produced in October 1940, Luftwaffe demanded even more rifles. Heeresamt raised the numbers and Luftwaffe got even Heer K98ks. See an example Volume II Chapter 3 Page 124.
- The visible barrel code is "cxm 354" and I assume the complete code is "cxm 354 40 bys", finished in 1940. Luftgau 4 used a lot of these barrels for their K98k Depot Builds.

heavy_mech said:
There is no finished chamber marking like 7,9 or 7,91 on the shank.

I'm sure the 0,2 is hidden under the woodline.

Stephan98k · Dec 13, 2024

Here is an example that might further confirm my assumption, a Luftzeugamt 1 Rebuild.

Jordan, thank you very much for the photos: Link

This "243 1939" Sn. 4085k isn't far away from the donor receiver in the "i" block.
Luftzeugamt 1 used these barrels too and it seems this one has even the same barrel lot like the other Depot Rebuild.

Warrior1354 · Dec 13, 2024

You know I completely forgot I own that rifle Stephan!

Truth be told it's one of my favorites. It was also the very first deal I did with my buddy Jeff. I'm so glad we did because we formed quite a friendship. He was the one that introduced me to another buddy. The Kentucky colonel Bill Reed!

Stephan98k · Dec 14, 2024

Warrior1354 said:
You know I completely forgot I own that rifle Stephan!

Truth be told it's one of my favorites. It was also the very first deal I did with my buddy Jeff. I'm so glad we did because we formed quite a friendship. He was the one that introduced me to another buddy. The Kentucky colonel Bill Reed!

Your comment and your nickname "ax-hole" reminds me that I forgot some important pics.

The last pic shows the faintly visible stamp "23".

I know what you mean Jordan and that's one of the best things, the great people you meet and the friendships that develop.

Stan · Dec 14, 2024

Stephan98k said:
This rifle is in my opinion a Luftwaffe Depot Rebuild of mainly two different Luftwaffe K98ks.

- Mauser Berlin "243 1939" coded receiver "i" Block
- Mauser Oberndorf "42 1940" Sn. 8087ff

- The LK5 stamp can be seen on the stock and the widespread assumption is, the LK5 stamp is associated with the Luftwaffe.
- Number "23" can be seen on the stock, some rifles with LK5 stamp have this number.
- The period in which the Mauser Berlin "243 1939" was produced, the Luftwaffe was increasingly getting rifles and round the "i" block nearly all of the MB K98k's I know are Luftwaffe.
- The period in which the Mauser "42 1940" Sn. 8087ff was produced in October 1940, Luftwaffe demanded even more rifles. Heeresamt raised the numbers and Luftwaffe got even Heer K98ks. See an example Volume II Chapter 3 Page 124.
- The visible barrel code is "cxm 354" and I assume the complete code is "cxm 354 40 bys", finished in 1940. Luftgau 4 used a lot of these barrels for their K98k Depot Builds.

I'm sure the 0,2 is hidden under the woodline.

I was wondering if anything new had been established regarding the LK3 and LK5 markings. Still thought to be Lutwaffe related it seems. I remember a detailed thread here on the markings some time back.

chgruener · Dec 14, 2024

Stephan98k said:
I agree with you, searching the clues is fun and in addition it's very important. I hope it's okay if I upload the pics, it would be a shame if the link in the future doesn't work anymore.

Stephan,

I purchased this rifle from the auction and I will be uploading detailed pictures when it arrives. Thank you all for the very educational discussion! I heavily collect battle damaged Japanese weapons, but haven’t had the opportunity to buy a battle damaged German one yet, the reason for my bidding on this one. This rifle shows textbook signs of shrapnel damage.

I actually didn’t learn of the depot history associated with this rifle until after I placed my first bid.

heavy_mech · Dec 15, 2024

Excellent! I was hopeful someone would show up with this. Looking forward to more detailed photos.

@chgruener did you find this thread searching for information about your purchase? In any case, I also think it's neat beyond the damage. Biggest negative was the clear goop added to the stock and the harsh stripping of said goop.

chgruener · Dec 15, 2024

heavy_mech said:
Excellent! I was hopeful someone would show up with this. Looking forward to more detailed photos.

@chgruener did you find this thread searching for information about your purchase? In any case, I also think it's neat beyond the damage. Biggest negative was the clear goop added to the stock and the harsh stripping of said goop.

I actually did not. Someone I know posted this thread for me, but then I remembered I had an account already so I’ve been able to follow along.

I will definitely be posting more detailed photos later this week.

Loewe · Dec 17, 2024

heavy_mech said:
The barrel code cxm 35 and then not shown is probably 40. Geco used that code in 1940-41.

Correct; lot 354 is probably a 1940 barrel, though the mating could be much later - but probably 41-42 based upon limited observations

heavy_mech · Dec 17, 2024

Stephan98k said:
This "243 1939" Sn. 4085k isn't far away from the donor receiver in the "i" block.
Luftzeugamt 1 used these barrels too and it seems this one has even the same barrel lot like the other Depot Rebuild.

I started to wonder about this and whether it's just a coincidence. Same maker and year and quite close in production to both be getting rebuilt by 1941-42?

The barrel I'm less surprised, even being an exact match. as Geco had been supplying for years already and were very prolific is providing spares.

Pat · Dec 18, 2024

One or two digit numbers are seen on LK5 marked rifles and carbines, including Beutewaffen.

It appears there is another number close to the butt plate, on the comb of the stock. It's faded, but it's there.

chgruener · Dec 30, 2024

New thread is up with more detailed photographs.

chgruener · Dec 30, 2024

I

Pat said:
One or two digit numbers are seen on LK5 marked rifles and carbines, including Beutewaffen.

It appears there is another number close to the butt plate, on the comb of the stock. It's faded, but it's there.

I can’t seem to find it. Can you point it out in a photograph?

Pat · Dec 30, 2024

It's the second to last photo in post #7, between the dark spot and the top of the butt plate.

243 1939 #8087 LK5 marked.

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