mismatched bolt bringbacks

Jdt said:

As Mr. Krabs from SpongeBob would say "LOOK AT ALL THAT LOOT!"
In all seriousness tho I honestly wonder what the value of all that equipment and weapons properly catalogued and stored would fetch price wise today if put up on the market.

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For certain! With the price of German helmets today, what would this pile be worth?

Stan said:

For certain! With the price of German helmets today, what would this pile be worth?

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Those would be really cool. Forgot what website it was but over in Belgium is a helmet/uniform dealer and SS helmets were in the 15-23K range. They were really nice but man I never realized how expensive those could be.

Stan said:

For certain! With the price of German helmets today, what would this pile be worth?

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At the end of the 1990s, I searched with a metal detector and often talked about it with my grandfather, a former Wehrmacht soldier, and my grandmother. After the war, my grandfather had his own business. He dismantled munitions and recycled war materials and other things. He could hardly understand why these things were worth so much. As a former paratrooper, I unfortunately never owned an original paratrooper helmet and my grandfather destroyed hundreds of them.

Stephan98k said:

At the end of the 1990s, I searched with a metal detector and often talked about it with my grandfather, a former Wehrmacht soldier, and my grandmother. After the war, my grandfather had his own business. He dismantled munitions and recycled war materials and other things. He could hardly understand why these things were worth so much. As a former paratrooper, I unfortunately never owned an original paratrooper helmet and my grandfather destroyed hundreds of them.

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Man that's terrible, but it's more a less a sign of the times back then. Everyone needed to work and rebuild and all that loot back then wasn't worth anywhere near as much as it is today.

Stephan98k said:

At the end of the 1990s, I searched with a metal detector and often talked about it with my grandfather, a former Wehrmacht soldier, and my grandmother. After the war, my grandfather had his own business. He dismantled munitions and recycled war materials and other things. He could hardly understand why these things were worth so much. As a former paratrooper, I unfortunately never owned an original paratrooper helmet and my grandfather destroyed hundreds of them.

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I just saw a Mark Felton video recently regarding the repurposing of WW2 German helmets, munitions and other military material into civilian products in the immediate post war years. Grenade bodies into coffee mugs, helmets into colanders, etc.. Interesting how some material was reformed into other products instead of just being melted down!

I have 2 or 3 98k's from veteran families with mm bolts.

Jdt said:

Man that's terrible, but it's more a less a sign of the times back then. Everyone needed to work and rebuild and all that loot back then wasn't worth anywhere near as much as it is today.

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I suspect people that had to wear it in combat had a different relationship with it as well. It's something we value as collectors, but I've known more than a few vets who saw nothing worth saving when it came to old military equipment. One of the guns from my grandfather's artillery unit ended up as a gate decoration for a national guard base miles from his house and he adamantly refused to go look at it. He said he'd already spent enough time with "the damn thing" but I suspect it had more to do with some ugly memories.

Cyrano4747 said:

I suspect people that had to wear it in combat had a different relationship with it as well. It's something we value as collectors, but I've known more than a few vets who saw nothing worth saving when it came to old military equipment. One of the guns from my grandfather's artillery unit ended up as a gate decoration for a national guard base miles from his house and he adamantly refused to go look at it. He said he'd already spent enough time with "the damn thing" but I suspect it had more to do with some ugly memories.

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More than likely

This is an interesting topic. Some of the local gun shows that I have attended in recent years I have seen about 4 or 5 dozen old Milsurps that have mis-matched bolts and other parts. Out of that 4 or 5 dozen only two or three individual guns would have fit the bill as being complete # matching commanding high 4 digit prices. Many had import stamps from such firms as Samco and the sellers try to pass them off as # matching junk.

Jeremy

It seems from people now long dead I spoke with on this subject there was no one way but many.
Some areas the Germans had to surrender with the bolt in one had the rifle in the other. Others it made no difference and the bolt remained in the gun.
Most bolt MM I obtained from the family that "knew" said they had no idea but did know the bolt was turned in to the quartermaster when embarking in Europe and they were handed a bolt when disembarking here. A German vet that immigrated here post war said most matching K98ks were brought in by importers post war when they went over and bought large bulk quantities of German weapons.

One interesting thing he mentioned was about ZF41 mounts and scopes. He said a large shipment of those headed to Rommel were in sealed containers on a ship sunk in semi-shallow water off the coast. The ship was salvaged and a jobber bought all the scopes/mounts and converted many K98k rifles to ZF41 guns
Only reason he mentioned this was a friend brought in a ZF41 for him to inspect being he had a 30 day refund from the SG-News retailer . The gun was nicely patinaed and look prefect but it was a JP Sauer so was obviously not a correct ZF41 and hence the explanation and the quick return for a refund

The nicest BoltMM I ever had was a 36 Sauer and it was covered with shellac. I was told some COs insisted on this to prevent evil German insects from infesting the USA. I do not know how true that is but I did see this 15+ years ago on a few bringbacks. The beautiful Sauer was # 262 (forgot code) and I found an early Sauer bolt numbered 6622 that I installed
The shellac wiped off with mineral spirits easily. Notice the shellac photo

I recall seeing a thread once regarding K98k with a bolt mismatch in Europe. A barn find or something like that. Can't find it now, perhaps it was on gunboards. This would certainly lend credence to the theory that some may have been mismatched by the Germans themselves, perhaps later in the war.

Jeremy McLean said:

This is an interesting topic. Some of the local gun shows that I have attended in recent years I have seen about 4 or 5 dozen old Milsurps that have mis-matched bolts and other parts. Out of that 4 or 5 dozen only two or three individual guns would have fit the bill as being complete # matching commanding high 4 digit prices. Many had import stamps from such firms as Samco and the sellers try to pass them off as # matching junk.

Jeremy

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I've owned imported rifles from multiple countries and time frames that were bolt MM. I do think that supports the stories that bolts were sometimes shipped separately from imported rifles and later replaced with no regard for matching numbers.

I think that this is quite an interesting read, from the June 1959 issue of Guns Magazine. Written by Capt. Emmett F. Donnelley, a US Army Officer in one of the Ordnance Disposal Units assigned to "Demilitarizing" "Captured Enemy Materiel" in 1945. He makes light of the fact that the gun magazines are selling all sorts of European weapons, and the piece is titled "I burned the Guns You'd Buy". I made a screenshot of all three pages containing the article and am attaching them as small pdf files, as it has some good photos. He makes mention of the fact that while most enemy weapons were destroyed, the Mauser 98's were given the "plush" treatment...refinished, oiled and neatly stacked in a warehouse for issue to the French. EDIT TO ADD: I see that the screenshots I downloaded are a bit too small so I am including a link to the Guns Magazine back issues page where you can go directly to the June 1959 issue and get the complete file. https://gunsmagazine.com/classic-is...c GUNS Magazine Issues. From 1959. Written By

harborrat said:

This would certainly lend credence to the theory that some may have been mismatched by the Germans themselves, perhaps later in the war.

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I have read many accounts by German (and other nationalities) soldiers and in 44 on as they retreated when they got back they went through interrogations and had to account for their weapons and explain any discrepancies. Showing up with parts not belonging to your rifle could lead to discipline, loss of rank and pay and in some cases where you lost the weapon assigned to prison battalions (Usually meaning suicide squads)
You stood in line and one Nazi coward would hold your life in his hands by whatever whim he desired.
That would tend to suggest MM bolts were mostly post surrender but did anyone else do some research that might shed more light on this?

Wulfmann said:

I have read many accounts by German (and other nationalities) soldiers and in 44 on as they retreated when they got back they went through interrogations and had to account for their weapons and explain any discrepancies. Showing up with parts not belonging to your rifle could lead to discipline, loss of rank and pay and in some cases where you lost the weapon assigned to prison battalions (Usually meaning suicide squads)
You stood in line and one Nazi coward would hold your life in his hands by whatever whim he desired.
That would tend to suggest MM bolts were mostly post surrender but did anyone else do some research that might shed more light on this?

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It is my understanding that the Germans stressed keeping matching components together while cleaning rifles, but we can only assume that mismatching did occur on some occasions by the Germans. I agree that more likely most mismatched bolts happened after surrender and that ALL the likely scenarios probably happened to some degree. I don't know if more definitive evidence will ever be obtained to confirm or dispel any of the possible scenarios at this point in time.

Stan said:

It is my understanding that the Germans stressed keeping matching components together while cleaning rifles, but we can only assume that mismatching did occur on some occasions by the Germans. I agree that more likely most mismatched bolts happened after surrender and that ALL the likely scenarios probably happened to some degree. I don't know if more definitive evidence will ever be obtained to confirm or dispel any of the possible scenarios at this point in time.

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You are right and I also agree that more likely most mismatched bolts happened after surrender. In #17, @Embalmer shows interesting pics. I could imagine that the American soldiers who captured the K98ks generally didn't worry much about the matching numbers of the parts. The German soldiers were usually very conscientious in this regard.

But it was also common for soldiers to throw away the bolt separately when they deserted or surrendered. This was intended to render the weapon useless for the enemy who captured it, and also to prevent accidents. Some children died after the war when they played with the weapons lying around.

I don't know where this pic comes from, but it's titled "Abandoned German weapons in Czech 1945":

Here is something important, an official order on this topic from the Oberkommando des Heeres (Army High Command) from 1940:



"131. Bolt parts of captured weapons

During the Polish campaign, individual German troops buried bolt parts of captured weapons (artillery bolts, rifle- and carbine bolts, etc.) in order to keep the weapons unusable for further use by the Polish army.
Such burial sites must be reported to O.K.H. Gen St d H/Gen Qu (Ia), stating the type and approximate number and enclosing a detailed sketch (Deadline February 15, 1940, no missing reports required).
O.K.H., January 25, 1940
- 1962/40 - Gen St d H/Gen Qu 1 Ia)."

Thank you Stephan! Good evidence regarding that scenario!

Photos of surrendered/abandoned rifles minus bolts seem to be rare. Thanks for posting that! I've only seen one with a German soldier carrying a rifle (Kar. 98a) with no bolt. It was taken in May1945 on the east bank of the Elbe at Tangermünde. Other well known photos from that event show the surrender pile on the other bank have rifles with bolts being turned in. Apparently the practice of removing bolts prior to turning them over was done by some and not others.

Stan said:

I just saw a Mark Felton video recently regarding the repurposing of WW2 German helmets, munitions and other military material into civilian products in the immediate post war years. Grenade bodies into coffee mugs, helmets into colanders, etc.. Interesting how some material was reformed into other products instead of just being melted down!

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Yes people have been recycling when recycling wasn’t cool