I remember seeing that one of GB! Really awesome example.
What Is It ???
- Thread starter DaveDavis
- Start date
I always lean toward Volksturm use for these simply because I always recall an acquaintance of mine buying a VK98, HZA marked Carcano and one of these Commercial builds from a Vet that looked almost identical to this one also with a blank receiver Eagle N marked on receiver and under the barrel and strangely with a 12/43 date who said that he grabbed all 3 from the same surrender pile the VK98 really sticks out in my mind because it had a cool sling made from an SA or political cross strap (chest strap) of tan colored leather with an oval gold pebbled buckle. Not documented evidence but ????
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DaveDavis
Well-known member
Well, the people building firearms were neither Nationalists or Socialists, they were Capitalists / diverting parts to make guns to sell on the side for hard currency was a standard practice , among some of them / Messerschmidt used way too aluminum in the production of aircraft, with the excess being used for other purposes on the side, such as manufacturing ladders, at a time when Germany was short of aluminum to the point of scavenging downed allied aircraft for the metal........
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Mauserguy85
Well-known member
The suspense is killing me!
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
In recent years there have been many discussions about the so-called "Commercial" K98k rifles and assumptions who these rifles were made for. A lot of very important information has already been mentioned in the K98k books and here in the forum. There are always assumptions about this, for example that these "Commercials" were made for the Volkssturm. Another assumption the K98ks were presents or awards to high-ranking NSDAP party members or sold to civilians etc.
It's a dead end if you try to link these "Commercials" directly to specific customers. If you do that, you will go around in circles forever, ignoring the obvious answer. There were other motives that led to the production of these rifles, these reasons are logical and easy to understand if you put yourself in the situation at the time.
In the Volume II book in the Mauser chapter on page 198 the following is written:
The Volkssturm was formally established in the end of September 1944, that was not the motivation to produce these "Commercials".
I can't imagine that a high-ranking party member would have received such a weapon, pistols were common. Possibly a hunting rifle, but a civilian military rifle is unlikely in my opinion and in particular in the year 1943.
By the way, in Volume II Mauser chapter on page 227 are interesting documents from this time period, about confiscated rifle scopes.
In 1943 the situation in Germany was extremely tense in all areas, there were already many problems in 1940. In a Waffenamt document "Overview of the industrial armaments situation in the Heer - Completed March 15,1940" is written:
The situation worsened and I would like to remind of the Rifle Crisis in 1941/1942.
Here is a comment of mine with documents and a diagram. The diagram shows the Rifle Crisis and it is helpful to understand the situation at the time:
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/b...-at-oaks-pa-gun-show.60572/page-2#post-475500
In another thread I wrote the following:
In my diagram from the link you can see that the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine did not receive any K98ks between February and April 1942 and the Heer received all K98ks in order to counteract this Rifle Crisis in the short term.
Please look also at the document about front consumption of the Western campaign and redirection of Heer armament. You can imagine what kind of trouble happened in the K98k area due to the heavy losses in the Stalingrad pocket. The G.41 and G.43 rifles also severely disrupted K98k production, and the HWa complained about this in February 1943.
Like during the Rifle Crisis in 1941/1942, the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine did not receive K98ks between February and April 1943 (Kriegsmarine only got 3,000 K98ks in March 1943) and the Heer received all K98ks in order to counteract the 1942/1943 Rifle Crisis in the short term.
At a Führer meeting with Albert Speer in March 1943, Hitler again demanded that K98k production must be increased significantly in the short term under all circumstances. Due to the K98k shortage during this period, in addition the Depot Builds K98ks were assembled from spare parts for several months starting in March 1943.
A very important document is in the Volume II book in the Mauser chapter on page 201 and here is a short excerpt:
There were many ammunition factories and these factories needed many rifles to test their products. The majority of these "Commercial" K98k were probably delivered to such industrial plants and they also need replacement rifles when heavily used rifles have been sent to the manufacturing plant for overhaul.
In some manufacturing areas weapons were needed for testing. One of these areas was steel helmet production. Here is a video with an interesting discussion:
German Stahlhelm manufacture and testing : Link
As already mentioned, 1943 there was a severe shortage of K98ks and spare parts. An ammunition factory doesn't need Waffenamt accepted K98ks, these "Commercial" K98ks are sufficient for these purposes. This was recognized and more K98k rifles were freed up for the front.
If K98k parts were rejected by the Waffenamt, they could be scrap, but that was not always the case. Some parts were safe and usable, these parts just failed the strict military inspection standards. Previously, these parts, which had been rejected by the Waffenamt but were usable, were often used to produce K98k cutaway models. In the manufacturing plant, trainees could make the cutaway models and the soldiers could be trained with it. It is no coincidence that these cutaway models and the "Commercial" K98ks have this "U" stamp,these are made from rejected parts which are safe and usable.
Thank you for the example Georg:
Some of these "Commercials" may have been used by the Volkssturm, but not on a large scale.
Therefore my comment: "I know my answer sounds very strange, but the Germans built these "Commercial" rifles because the K98k's were so badly needed at the front."
It's a dead end if you try to link these "Commercials" directly to specific customers. If you do that, you will go around in circles forever, ignoring the obvious answer. There were other motives that led to the production of these rifles, these reasons are logical and easy to understand if you put yourself in the situation at the time.
In the Volume II book in the Mauser chapter on page 198 the following is written:
The Volkssturm was formally established in the end of September 1944, that was not the motivation to produce these "Commercials".
I can't imagine that a high-ranking party member would have received such a weapon, pistols were common. Possibly a hunting rifle, but a civilian military rifle is unlikely in my opinion and in particular in the year 1943.
By the way, in Volume II Mauser chapter on page 227 are interesting documents from this time period, about confiscated rifle scopes.
In 1943 the situation in Germany was extremely tense in all areas, there were already many problems in 1940. In a Waffenamt document "Overview of the industrial armaments situation in the Heer - Completed March 15,1940" is written:
The situation worsened and I would like to remind of the Rifle Crisis in 1941/1942.
Here is a comment of mine with documents and a diagram. The diagram shows the Rifle Crisis and it is helpful to understand the situation at the time:
https://www.k98kforum.com/threads/b...-at-oaks-pa-gun-show.60572/page-2#post-475500
In another thread I wrote the following:
In my diagram from the link you can see that the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine did not receive any K98ks between February and April 1942 and the Heer received all K98ks in order to counteract this Rifle Crisis in the short term.
Please look also at the document about front consumption of the Western campaign and redirection of Heer armament. You can imagine what kind of trouble happened in the K98k area due to the heavy losses in the Stalingrad pocket. The G.41 and G.43 rifles also severely disrupted K98k production, and the HWa complained about this in February 1943.
Like during the Rifle Crisis in 1941/1942, the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine did not receive K98ks between February and April 1943 (Kriegsmarine only got 3,000 K98ks in March 1943) and the Heer received all K98ks in order to counteract the 1942/1943 Rifle Crisis in the short term.
At a Führer meeting with Albert Speer in March 1943, Hitler again demanded that K98k production must be increased significantly in the short term under all circumstances. Due to the K98k shortage during this period, in addition the Depot Builds K98ks were assembled from spare parts for several months starting in March 1943.
A very important document is in the Volume II book in the Mauser chapter on page 201 and here is a short excerpt:
There were many ammunition factories and these factories needed many rifles to test their products. The majority of these "Commercial" K98k were probably delivered to such industrial plants and they also need replacement rifles when heavily used rifles have been sent to the manufacturing plant for overhaul.
In some manufacturing areas weapons were needed for testing. One of these areas was steel helmet production. Here is a video with an interesting discussion:
German Stahlhelm manufacture and testing : Link
As already mentioned, 1943 there was a severe shortage of K98ks and spare parts. An ammunition factory doesn't need Waffenamt accepted K98ks, these "Commercial" K98ks are sufficient for these purposes. This was recognized and more K98k rifles were freed up for the front.
If K98k parts were rejected by the Waffenamt, they could be scrap, but that was not always the case. Some parts were safe and usable, these parts just failed the strict military inspection standards. Previously, these parts, which had been rejected by the Waffenamt but were usable, were often used to produce K98k cutaway models. In the manufacturing plant, trainees could make the cutaway models and the soldiers could be trained with it. It is no coincidence that these cutaway models and the "Commercial" K98ks have this "U" stamp,these are made from rejected parts which are safe and usable.
Thank you for the example Georg:
Some of these "Commercials" may have been used by the Volkssturm, but not on a large scale.
Therefore my comment: "I know my answer sounds very strange, but the Germans built these "Commercial" rifles because the K98k's were so badly needed at the front."
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
The commercially proofed K98k rifles were used in commercial fields, mainly at weapon related companies, yes. These companies often doesn't need a Waffenamt accepted K98k, a commercial proofed K98k, assembled with rejected parts, was sufficient. Keep in mind Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine did not receive K98ks between February and April 1943 (Kriegsmarine only got 3,000 K98ks in March 1943). The Feldzeug-Inspektion were happy about every single K98k that did not have to be handed over to other military units or civilian companies.
Raw materials and many weapons were extremely scarce during this period. The companies still had many K98k parts that had been rejected by the Waffenamt. Some of these parts were stamped "Unbrauchbar", classified as unusable for assembling regular Wehrmacht K98k. A lot of manpower had already been invested in these weapon parts, so why not use them to assemble a "Commercial" K98k? Each of these rifles built meant one K98k less being handed over and one more for the Heer at the front.
We know of a larger number of "Commercial" K98k from the period late 1944/1945, the Volkssturm is not the reason in this period either. The reason for this lies in an order from Hitler, not just an order, but even a new Reich law about such parts. It's very important in many other fields, sniper rifles as example (late Mauser LT in December 1944)!
I'm sure Bruce will write something about this in the new K98k Addendum book.
Everyone talks about the Volkssturm and here we have something. For example, in December 1944, the Volkssturm received 20,000 new Waffenamt accepted K98k from ongoing production through Fz.Jn. Not because they were subordinate to the Heer like usual, in this case they got them directly.
Stephan98k
aka 8x57IS
Yes, large quantities of ammunition were needed to continue the war, and the ammunition factories needed rifles for testing. Even though it was crazy, the planning continued.
From 1943 to 1945 there are no K98k deliveries to commercial companies in the Fz.Jn. documents which I know. There are other weapons deliveries to commercial companies, for example 7 MP40s in February 1944 and also 6 MP43 in the same month to commercial companies for "Werkbeschuss" (test fire in companies).
The MP40 was actually supposed to be replaced by the MP43. In January 1944, there were still 17,500 MP40s accepted by the Waffenamt, in February 1944 there were only 8,562. Nevertheless, commercial companies received 6 MP40s at this late stage. The 9mm machine pistol ammunition had to continue to be manufactured during the transition phase.
The K98k was actually supposed to be replaced by the K43 and later by the Stg44. Maybe that's why there were these very late "Commercials", but that's just my assumption.
The March 1945 Fz.Jn. document lists the numbers for February 1945. Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine didn't got K98ks. Heer got 70,067 and SS got 8,000 K98k rifles that month. Similar with K98k sniper, Heer got all of them.
corifleman
Member
Such valuable information, thank you for taking the time to share!
